HL Deb 21 March 1968 vol 290 cc673-6

3.10 p.m.

LORD HURCOMB

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are now prepared to prohibit entirely the importation of the plumage of the grey jungle fowl, of which the Government of India has prohibited the export in view of the rarity of this bird in its only natural habitat.]

LORD BROWN

My Lords, I understand that the export of plumage of the grey jungle fowl from India is subject to an export control order of 1962 which allows exports on merits, though recent applications for export licences have all been rejected. Imports into the United Kingdom, which are used in the manufacture of fishing flies, are strictly controlled by quota, and in 1967 licences were issued for only 3,600 skins, compared with 4,250 skins in 1966. No licences have so far been issued for 1968. Her Majesty's Government have received no request from the Government of India to prohibit imports entirely, but such a request has been made by the British and Indian National Sections of the International Council for Bird Preservation, and the interested Departments of Her Majesty's Government are considering the implications of a prohibition.

LORD HURCOMB

My Lords, may I, in thanking the noble Lord for his Answer, ask him whether Her Majesty's Government do not accept as a matter of principle that where a foreign country tries to protect its rare fauna by prohibiting export it is incumbent on this country to back up those efforts by prohibiting the import and not undermine its effort by allowing what is an illegal import?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, the attitude of the Board of Trade on this matter is, first, that they should not ban imports into this country if by doing so they succeed merely in re-routing those exports to other countries and so put our manufacturers at a disadvantage. Secondly, it is not clear as yet—inquiries are going on—whether statements to the effect that this bird reproduces itself only in India are correct. Thirdly, statements are alleged to have been made that the birds are plentiful and freely shot of for food in India. Investigations are proceeding to discover the truth or otherwise of these various statements, and until we are satisfied we are not prepared to take action.

LORD MITCHISON

My Lords, after what happened to the dodo do not the Government consider that there is a case for preserving rare birds which are found only in small quantities in peculiar places?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, if we, were satisfied that this bird is in the same category as the dodo we should no doubt be prepared to take the action requested of us; but we are not as yet so satisfied.

LORD HURCOMB

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this question? Granted that the bird is not in imminent danger of extinction, it has become so rare in India that the Indian authorities and the Indian Government are not allowing its export. In those circumstances does he not agree that we should back up their efforts and prohibit its import? Further, may I ask him on what ornithological or scientific advice his Department is proceeding in regard to this continued assumption that the bird is not rare and that it extends beyond peninsular India? May I suggest to him that there are ample authorities in London, in the Zoological Gardens, the Natural History Museum and elsewhere, to give him authoritative information on that point?

Finally, may I suggest that if these feathers are required to make salmon flies he might ask his honourable friend in the Board of Trade to dispense with this luxurious and quite unnecessary import, and persuade some of our own poultry rearers to breed the birds in this country?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, the questions he has asked are based on the assumption that the statements he has made are undeniably the facts of the case. We have to make sure that this is so. The fact is that India has prohibited the export of these birds, and statements have been made that India is the only source of these birds. It is therefore the concern of the Government, if we are importing these birds, to know where they come from if India is the only source. The answer to the noble Lord's second question is that the Board of Trade is normally advised on matters of this kind by the British section of the International Council for Bird Preservation; but in this particular matter we are in an unfortunate position because the applicants for this order are the International Council for Bird Preservation. We, therefore, in justice have to turn to other sources for advice which we are investigating now.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, I do not want to prolong the matter, but did I understand the noble Lord to say that when this bird was on the same footing as the dodo the Government would take steps to prevent its import?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, I stand corrected. When the bird is in the same situation as the dodo no doubt was about 1850, then we will take these steps.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, can my noble friend say how salmon were caught in this country before the discovery of the grey jungle fowl in Southern India?

LORD HURCOMB

My Lords, without pressing the matter too far, may I ask the noble Lord whether he or his Department are under the impression that the bird is not limited in its range to peninsular India? If he is under that impression, why, may I ask, does he not go to the authoritative sources of scientific information in this country which are so easily available to him?

LORD BROWN

My Lords, we are desperately trying to establish the facts in this matter, and we shall continue to do so. When we are sure of the facts we will consider the action to be taken.

LORD HURCOMB

My Lords, I shall take up no more of your Lordships' time, but there are many ornithologists in this country who have authoritative knowledge on the point.

THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD SHEPHERD)

My Lords, I am sure that birds are a subject in which your Lordships have a great deal of interest. The noble Lord has asked a fair number of supplementaries. I am conscious that we have a great deal of business in front of us. Perhaps we could deal with this interesting subject on another occasion.

LORD STRANGE

My Lords, arising out of the replies of the noble Lord, may I say that the guinea fowl—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Order, order!

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, the purpose of Question Time is to seek information, not to suggest or to give points of view.