HL Deb 13 March 1968 vol 290 cc197-200
LORD AILWYN

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how many dog licences were issued in the United Kingdom in each of the years subsequent to 1959, and what is the estimated dog population in the United Kingdom at the present time.]

LORD HILTON OF UPTON

My Lords, I have the figures here for licences issued by the Post Office in Great Britain and under other arrangements in Northern Ireland, but I think it would be for your Lordship's convenience if I arranged for them to be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT. In answer to the second part of the Question, there are no official estimates of the total dog population but the R.S.P.C.A. have quoted a figure of 4¾ million for Great Britain.

Following are the figures showing the Number of Dog Licences issued annually

Great Britain (by G.P.O.) N. Ireland (by Clerk of Petty Sessions)
1960 2,721,285 98,968
1961 2,701,555 99,418
1962 2,739,811 97,664
1963 2,793,052 98,451
1964 2,847,069 98,464
1965 2,863,972 95,612
1966 2,848,060 96,554
1967 2,878,280 92,264

LORD AILWYN

My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, and arising from it, may I ask him this question? What steps are being taken to deal with the wholesale evasion of tax that is apparent from the figure he has just read out—roughly 2¾ million licences for 4¾ million dogs? Is it not a duty of the police to verify that a person with a dog is in possession of a licence, and can they not require that person to produce the licence entitling him or her to own that dog? "Thirdly, if the police are too busy, as they may well be in towns and cities, to carry out that task, is it not about time that dog wardens were appointed for the purpose?

LORD HILTON OF UPTON

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that there appears to be a very big discrepancy between the number of licences issued and the estimated dog population given by the R.S.P.C.A. So far as the police are concerned, we all realise that they have a pretty tough assignment. At the moment they are hard pressed dealing with serious crimes and they are not normally able to undertake inquiries about the existence and validity of dog licences; and I regret to tell the noble Lord that there is no possibility of their being in a position to do so in the near future. As for his suggestion about dog wardens, this seems to me to be something that ought to be considered, and I can promise the noble Lord that I will put up his suggestion to the Minister concerned.

BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY

My Lords, would it not be feasible for a dog to "wear" a licence, in the same way that a car does?

THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that that is the system in the United States of America and in Canada, and that it works perfectly satisfactorily there? Will Her Majesty's Government give consideration to adopting in this country the same sensible system of dog licences, which I have had the honour to urge in your Lordships' House before?

LORD ILFORD

My Lords, would it not be better to do away with this trivial tax altogether?

LORD HILTON OF UPTON

My Lords, I shall certainly put up the suggestions of the noble Baroness and the noble Earl to my right honourable friend. Perhaps we can get dogs in this country to wear their licences, as cars carry them.

VISCOUNT DILHORNE

My Lords, is it not the case that there are a large number of people who are entitled to keep dogs without having a dog licence? While he is on this point, can the noble Lord give the figures of those who have been disqualified from having a dog licence.

LORD HILTON OF UPTON

My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot give the noble and learned Viscount the information for which he has asked. It is true, however, that a good many people are exempt from having to pay licences for the dogs they keep.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, in view of the statements that the buying power of the pound has declined by 50 per cent. in the last twenty years, and 75 per cent. in the last thirty years (since 1936, it has gone down to 5s. 2d.), and in view of the forceful recommendations made by my noble friend Lord Ailwyn, can the noble Lord state the date of the last fixing of the price for a dog licence?

LORD HILTON OF UPTON

My Lords, I cannot give that information from memory, but I can say that the whole question of whether or not the licence fee should be increased is at the moment under review.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind, in considering these exchanges, that the Government have asked local authorities not to increase the number of their officials. Is he aware that when I was chairman of the appropriate committee of Essex County Council we had to employ what we called "doggers" at certain times of the year to attend to dog licence defaulters? Is my noble friend also aware of the fact that at one time the situation became so serious that we had to consider whether we should approach the honourable Member for Barking to raise the matter in another place?

LORD HILTON OF UPTON

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for coming to my assistance.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, since we do not seem to be able to afford a Territorial Army by any ordinary means, could we not finance it by an increase in the dog licence, which we are told has not been increased for a number of years?

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)

My Lords, I think that a certain amount of licence is developing.