§ 3.16 p.m.
§ LORD TREFGARNEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government why no representative from the airline industry has been appointed to the Commission of Inquiry into London's Third Airport.]
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the Government have been fortunate in securing the services of persons representing a very wide field of expertise. Membership of the Commission includes persons eminent in aeronautics and in the business world who are well fitted to understand the particular interests of the airlines in this matter. It would be impossible to include experts in every aspect 1547 of the matter, but the Commission will be free to seek outside advice from whatever source they wish, including of course the airlines industry.
§ LORD TREFGARNEMy Lords, again I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply. May I ask whether he honestly believes that this Commission will be able to reach a conclusion, considering all the aspects of the problem, without having the fullest consultation with the people who are going to use this third London Airport? How can he expect that the Commission will be able to reach their conclusions by only calling on evidence which may or may not be available when required?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I should have thought that evidence would be available and consultation would be possible on all these aspects; and the President of the Royal Aeronautical Society, for example, will be well versed in certain of the problems which the noble Lord has in mind.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, arising out of that question and the reply, is it not a fact that a commercial operational experience will be required by the members of the Commission at all stages when witnesses are interviewed? Surely it would strengthen the authority and knowledge of the Commission if the Government would look at this matter again.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I do not think there is any question of looking at this matter again. The point is, I think, that on the previous occasion possibly we went too far in the other direction; it was said that too much weight was given to the airline companies. It may well be that on this occasion the pendulum has swung to the other extreme. But these people have been appointed; they have a difficult task in front of them, and I think the best thing to do would be to let them get on with it.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, is it not the case that this Commission will have every power to consult with all the interests, airline interests and others, throughout, from begining to end, and obtain all the information that they require, and will consider all the infor- 1548 mation which these bodies would be likely to submit to them?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount. He has said much more forcefully what I tried to say.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, would it not be proper that these airline interests should have their views heard at the Inquiry in the role of witnesses, and quite wrong if they were witnesses and judges at the same time?
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONMy Lords, may I intervene, having had, after all, a good deal to do with these matters? Sending for somebody to give evidence is a very different thing from having somebody who really knows about the matter sitting in with you the whole time. If the Government would reconsider the membership and would put one operator on this body, which is a large body, he would not have the least controlling interest. There is really the whole difference in the world between just sending for somebody when you think you want to ask him a question and having him there with that knowledge. The people we are discussing are the only people who have the knowledge of what is required for air operations, and if a representative of the airline industry were appointed he would be only one among many completely unprejudiced. Take somebody who is not an air operator at the present time—somebody who has had past experience as an air operator. With all the experience I have had, I would beg the Government to reconsider this matter.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I cannot disguise from your Lordships that my own personal opinion is that it would have been better to have someone of this kind. Nevertheless, if one looks at the list I am sure the noble Earl will find that it is a representative list of very eminent persons who are quite capable of assessing evidence, including that which they may get from the airline industry. The essence of this matter now is that the Commission should get on with the job, and I think we should put our confidence in the men who have been entrusted to do a difficult task.
§ LORD TREFGARNEMy Lords, I think I heard the noble Lord right when 1549 he said the interests of the airline operators would be looked after by the President of the Royal Aeronautical Society. Can the noble Lord tell us—I say this without wishing to be impertinent—what particular experience that particular gentleman has, who is, I know, widely experienced in other fields of airline operations.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I was not thinking wholly of the airline operators, and if he looks at what I said the noble Lord will see I was not suggesting that Professor Keith Lucas would represent the interests of the airline operators. What I said was that he was perfectly capable of understanding aviation problems.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, what I cannot understand is why the Government can never reconsider a decision they have once reached. From what the noble Lord has said, I understand that he himself is doubtful whether the right decision has been reached. Why cannot they reconsider it?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I really do stand abashed at the noble Marquess's raising this point. Surely the only reason we have a Commission is because we have reconsidered a decision, and we have reconsidered it because it was alleged that the airline interests were taken too much into account and that other factors were not. This Commission now is composed so as to give confidence to all concerned and, as I say, I feel that we should stop nagging at them and let them get on with their task.
§ LORD TREFGARNEMy Lords, does the noble Lord appreciate that his confidence in the competence of this Commission is not shared by the airline industry at large?