HL Deb 20 June 1968 vol 293 cc847-9
LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the form of accounts presented annually by the B.B.C. is sufficiently informative about fees and salaries in the higher grades, and whether they will consider what steps should be taken by amendment of the licence, the Charter or otherwise to ensure that fuller information is available to Parliament and to the licence paying public.]

LORD BOWLES

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Postmaster General sees no reason for requiring the B.B.C. to publish this information, but if the noble Lord has any particular reason in mind, my right honourable friend will be glad to consider it, in consultation with the Chairman of the B.B.C.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will ask his right honourable friend to look into this matter again, because while there are references throughout the report to shortage of money and, on nearly every page, to the estimated sizes of audiences, there is virtually no information at all on the costs of programmes, and it is quite impossible for the licence-payers, who provide all this income, to judge between the costs of the different programmes, whether they are Westerns, plays, operas or other programmes?

LORD BOWLES

My Lords, of course I will do as the noble Lord suggests and bring his second question to the notice of my right honourable friend, but I am sure that he has seen, from his reading of this report, that the B.B.C. give a great deal more information than the ordinary company report. I should have thought that he would be satisfied with that; but, if not, I will see my right honourable friend about it.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, I admit that a large amount of information fills the report, but can the noble Lord point out any page where there is the sort of information which forms the basis of my question? Further, since he referred to company reports, can I ask him to explain this? When we were discussing the Companies Bill the Government produced every argument for more information being given in annual reports, among other things on the salaries of more highly paid executives, but different arguments now apply here.

LORD BOWLES

My Lords, the Charters of both the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. were issued in the time of the noble Lord's Government before the Labour Government came into power in 1964, and the Companies Act was passed into law last year, and no question of this kind was raised by the noble Lord's friends either in this House or in another place.

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that the higher grades mentioned in the Question are not executive grades and therefore are subject to negotiations in the normal way between the B.B.C. and their trade union or staff association, and that this is not a matter for the annual report?

LORD BOWLES

My Lords, that is quite true, and, as the noble Lord knows quite well, the Government do not interfere with the day-to-day working of the B.B.C. or of any nationalised industry. These things we negotiated on the usual commercial basis.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, arising out of what the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, has said, may I ask my noble friend whether, when going into this matter, he would not consider that as the independent television companies are obliged to show the salaries of the higher grades under the Companies Act it would be much better for the B.B.C. to be brought into line?

LORD BOWLES

My Lords, the companies under the I.T.A. are companies, but the B.B.C. is not a company and therefore it is not subject to the Companies Act.

LORD PARGITER

My Lords, is my noble friend not aware that the implication of the Question is that programmes must be assessed on what they cost and not on their real value to the public?

LORD BOWLES

My Lords. I agree completely with my noble friend. If we published the salaries paid to the producers of these programmes it would play the B.B.C. rather unfairly into their competitors' hands—the I.T.A.

LORD BOOTHBY

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, however much people are paid, on the whole programmes are getting worse and worse, and can he do something about that?

LORD BOWLES

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord has any real reason for concern. I hope that he himself is not contributing to the worsening conditions.