§ LORD ELTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their estimate of the approximate number of coloured citizens in the United Kingdom, and their proportion of the total population, (a) in the year 2000 and (b) in the year 2100, if present law and practice in respect of immigration were to remain unaltered.]
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, there are too many uncertainties in this Question—not least what the noble Lord means by "coloured citizens"—for any reliable estimates to be made.
§ LORD ELTONMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that Answer and for the efforts which I am sure she made to make it more informative, may I ask this question? Can she give some assurance that, while nobody could expect an answer giving the correct figures down to the last 200,000 for the end of this century, or the last 2 million in the century after, the Government are not merely closing their eyes to the future but from time to time are giving serious thought to the eventual dimensions of the coloured population which, whether for good or ill, must so profoundly affect the character and future of this country?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will appreciate that Her Majesty's Government do not close their eyes to any situation and are always alert to the welfare of all citizens. The noble Lord is quite correct in saying 684 that it is impossible to make a forecast. There are so many imponderables—even, I may venture to suggest, in the definition of the word "coloured" which may well be quite different by the year 2000.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask the Minister, would not a mild epidemic of colour blindness in this country greatly relieve the noble Lord, Lord Elton, of what must be for him a very painful obsession about the immigrants in this country?
§ LORD MOLSONMy Lords, have the Government any reliable information about the relative fertility of Commonwealth immigrants as compared with that of other sections of the community?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I am afraid that there is no breakdown of the figures in this connection. As the noble Lord will appreciate, in many cases figures of fertility are related—I speak as a Catholic—to religious beliefs.
§ LORD MOLSONMy Lords, following that point the Government will be aware that the various medical officers of health for various large conurbations have given figures. I was asking whether the Government are of the opinion that there are any reliable figures that can be obtained.
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, as far as I am informed, these figures are not broken down in relation to coloured immigrants. The figures relate in these given areas to marriages and the size of families; but there is no explicit breakdown of the kind for which the noble Lord asks.
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, would not my noble friend agree that we are all coloured? Do we not go from pale and pink down to dark and sable?
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister, whether, regardless of colour (I am not interested in that) Her Majesty's Government are studying the question of the increase of the population in these Islands within the next 25 years? Does the Minister know that calculations have already been made that in thirty years' time the population of this country will be 100 million? How are we to feed them? I am not 685 interested in colour; but are Government studies being made?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I am sure that the noble Baroness will realise that this is another question; and even, I might venture to suggest, one that might be a subject for an interesting debate. Again, there seem to be several imponderables. We do not know whether we are all going to survive—certainly we here shall not survive—for another thirty years; or whether the figures will be as static as all that.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, will the noble Baroness try to find out?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I feel sure that Her Majesty's Government are watching the matter. I shall be happy to get the information the noble Baroness requires.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, are the Government aware that American doctors have invented a pill which turns black skins into white skins and which therefore solves the whole colour problem?
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, are the Government aware that the original Question was devoted to a subject which is causing very real anxiety all over the country, and that anything that savours of an evasive answer is likely only to increase that anxiety?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I am sorry if the noble Marquess thinks that my Answer was evasive. I was asked specifically for a breakdown of figures which is not available. What I can say is that the number of voucher holders arriving last year was 5,000 compared with 30,000 in 1963. This may in some measure affect the years we are now considering. But the noble Lord rather cast his figures further into another century.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the basis of the Question is that some people are afraid that there may be majority rule in England in the year 2001, when we are all dead? Is she further aware that it was on this basis that the Conservative Party voted against us yesterday?