HL Deb 13 June 1968 vol 293 cc294-306

7.8 p.m.

LORD SORENSEN

My Lords I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, That the House do new resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Sorensen.)

House in Committee accordingly.

[The LORD JESSEL in the Chair.]

Clause 1 [Hearing Aid Council]:

LORD SORENSEN

In moving Amendment No. 1, may I say that this is a non-contentious Bill, and I am happy to inform the Committee that all those noble Lords who contributed so valuably to the discussion on this matter last week have been fully satisfied with the proposals embodied in the various Amendments which have been put down to the Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 10, leave out ("the retail selling of") and insert ("dispensing").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment is no more than a drafting variation. The definition of "suppliers" in the Bill relates only to persons employing dispensers, and as drafted the Bill requires a self-employed dispenser to register as a dispenser. Such a person would ordinarily be described as a supplier. It therefore seems right that the Bill should draw a distinction between dispensers and employers of dispensers rather than between dispensers and suppliers. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 20, leave out ("suppliers") and insert ("persons employing such dispensers"). —(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment and No. 8 seek simply to improve the grammar. "Variation of" seems a little better than "variation to", though I am not quite clear why. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 3, leave out ("to") and insert ("of").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment, No. 4, and the next three Amendments are designed to meet a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn. May I say that he has explained why he cannot be here now, and I quite appreciate the reason. I also appreciate the very great help he gave in regard to this and other Amendments. He suggested that where the Board of Trade approved a variation of a standard or code they should have power to require other variations made to the relevant standard or code as a condition of their giving approval, as well as the power already conferred by the Bill to require the variations to be modified. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2. line 5, leave out ("code or variation") and insert ("or code").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 7, at end insert ("and in approving any variation may make their approval conditional upon the modifying of that variation or the further varying of the relevant standard or code in such manner as they may require:").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

I beg to move Amendment No. 6.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 9, after ("modification") insert ("or further variation").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

I beg to move No. 7.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 12, after ("modifications") insert ("or further variations").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

I beg to move this Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 15, leave out ("to") and insert ("of").—(Lord Sorensen.)

Clause 2 [Registers of persons selling hearing aids]:

LORD SORENSEN

The reason for this Amendment has already been given in regard to Amendment No. 2, and it carries out the purpose described previously. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 26, leave out ("suppliers of hearing aids") and insert ("persons employing such dispensers").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

Amendments Nos. 16 and 25 go with this Amendment, No. 10. It paves the way for the employment of the definition of "prescribed" set out in the new Clause 14. The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, suggested the inclusion of this definition. As the Bill itself specifies the amount of the fee and only provides for the Council to vary it, it is not correct to describe the fee as "prescribed". I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 30, leave out ("prescribed") and insert ("appropriate").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment does not make any very great change in the Bill. As the Bill now covers the hiring of hearing aids, it is thought that the reference to "selling" in Clause 2(5)(a) should be widened so as to permit the registration as dispensers of persons who have been dispensing aids on hire terms. This the Amendment does. It also makes it clear that persons registering by virtue of paragraph (a) can aggregate a series of periods in which they have acted as dispensers, in order to satisfy the six months' requirement. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 2, line 34, leave out lines 34 to 42 and insert— ("( ) Any individual other than a disqualified person shall he qualified to be registered under this section as a dispenser of hearing aids if— (a) during the period of two years immediately preceding the commencement of this Act he has acted as a dispenser of such aids for a period of, or periods totalling, at least six months; or").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment is purely drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 1, at beginning insert ("he").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment really goes with Amendment No. 31, and again is mainly an attempt to improve the drafting. The main change is that bodies corporate which are controlled by, or wholly or partly managed by, persons who have been struck off either of the registers are prima facie ineligible for registration as employers of dispensers. It is to be noted that bodies corporate are not, in any event, eligible for registration as dispensers and that on appeal pursuant to Clause 2(7) the Disciplinary Committee may direct that paragraph (b) of this subsection shall not apply in a particular case. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 3, line 4, leave out subsection (5) and insert— ("( ) Subject to subsection (7) of this section, any person other than—

  1. (a) a disqualified person or a person carrying on business in partnership with a disqualified person; or
  2. (b) a body corporate which has Among its directors one or more disqualified persons or in which a disqualified person has a controlling interest or in the management of which a disqualified person participates,
shall be qualified to be registered under this section as an employer of dispensers of tearing aids if he employs or proposes to employ any person to dispense such aids.")—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This is a simple Amendment. It would appear a little odd if a person had a right of appeal to the Disciplinary Committee because the registrar refused to register him, but no right of appeal if the registrar simply sat on the application without expressly refusing to register. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 14, after ("refused") insert ("or the registrar fails to enter the name of the applicant on the appropriate regisier")— (Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment goes with Amendment No. 10, and should also be considered with Amen intent No. 25. The object is to make it clear that a fee of £10 or £1, as the case may be, is payable upon registration, and that a similar fee is payable annually in. respect of the retention of a name in the register, and that the Council has power to vary these fees. Technically, the fee for retention of a name will require to be paid only by the appropriate rules, while the obligation to pay a registration fee is imposed by the Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 17, leave out ("Company ") and insert ("body corporate").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

I beg to move this Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 20, after ("section") insert ("' appropriate fee' means in the case of an application for registration as a dispenser a fee of £10 or such other amount as may be prescribed and in the case of an application for registration as an employer of such dispensers a fee of £1 or such other amount as may be prescribed; and").—(Lord Sorensen.)

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 [Offences by unregistered persons]:

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment meets the point made by the noble Viscount, Lord Simon. He pointed out that Clause 3(1)(b) of the Bill related only to the employment of unregistered dispensers by unregistered employers, and suggested that the provision needed revision. As revised, paragraph (a) of the subsection makes it unlawful for a person not registered as an employer to employ anyone to act as a dispenser of hearing aids, whether or not that person is registered as a dispenser: and paragraph (c) makes it unlawful for a registered employer to employ an unregistered dispenser. To save repeating lines 35 to 37 on page 3 in relation to each paragraph of the subsection, an abbreviated concept, "to act as a dispenser of hearing aids", has been used. These words are to be interpreted in the sense used in Clause 14. The words "and acting under the supervision of a registered dispenser" at the end of paragraph (c) are included at the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 3, line 35, leave out from beginning to end of line 6 on page 4 and insert— ("to act as a dispenser of hearing aids;

to act as a dispenser of such aids:").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

The two Amendments proposed to line 7 of page 4, Amendments Nos. 18 and 19, are purely drafting Amendments suggested by the Home Office. I beg to move Amendments Nos. 18 and 19.

Amendments moved— Page 4, line 7, leave out ("contravention of") and insert ("person who contravenes") Page 4, line 7, after ("be") insert ("guilty of").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

Subsection (3) is now superfluous because of the definition of an employer of dispensers in the new Clause 14. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 10, leave out subsection (3). —(Lord Sorensen.)

Clause 4 [Rules]:

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment deals with the issue of certificates to registered persons. The matter was dealt with by Clause 2(4) of the Bill, but not in a very satisfactory manner. It is suggested that it should be left to the Council to deal with the details of issuing certificates. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 16, leave out ("and in particular") and insert ("and with respect to the issue by the registrar of certificates of registration and such rules may in particular"). —(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

The next three Amendments are all minor drafting changes. I beg to move Amendments Nos. 22, 23 and 24.

Amendments moved—

Page 4, line 17. leave out ("regulating") and insert ("regulate")

Page 4, line 18. leave out ("providing") and insert ("provide")

Page 4, line 20, leave out ("providing") and insert ("provide").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment has already been discussed on Amendments Nos. 10 and 16. It is to be read in conjunction with the Amendment on page 3, line 20. The Amendments distinguish between the fee payable on first registration and annual fees for the retention of names on registers. There is no change of substance. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 4, line 22, leave out paragraph (c) and insert— ("(c) require persons whose names are for the time being entered in the said registers to pay in respect of the retention of their names in the relevant register an annual fee of i10 in the case of persons registered as dispensers and El in the case of persons registered as employers of such persons; (cc) vary the amount of either of the fees payable under section 2 of this Act upon first registration or the amount of either of the fees referred to in paragraph (c) of this section; ").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This and the following two Amendments are pure drafting. The clause lacks a couple of verbs, I believe. They also pave the way for a new proviso, placed, as it should be, at the end of the clause. I therefore beg to move Amendments Nos. 26, 27 and 28.

Amendments moved—

Page 4, line 28, at beginning insert ("provide for")

Page 4, line 38, leave out the proviso.

Page 5, line 3, at beginning insert ("provide for").—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This proviso replaces the misplaced proviso at the end of paragraph (d) of Clause 4. There is one change of substance. The consent of the Board of Trade is required for any rule under this section, and not just rules varying fees. I beg to move.

Amendment moved

Page 5, line 5, at end insert— ("Provided that the Council shall not—

  1. (i) make any rule under this section unless the terms of that rule have been approved in writing by the Board of Trade; or
  2. (ii) make any rule pursuant to paragraph (d) of this section without first consulting any organisations which appear to the Council to he representative of the interests of dispensers of hearing aids or of persons employing such dispensers.").—(Lord Sorensen.)

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 [The Disciplinary Committee]:

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment is purely drafting. I beg to move

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 35, delete ("These rules") and insert ("Rules under this section")—(Lord Sorensen.)

On Question, Amendment agreed, to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed Ito.

Clause 7 [Erasure front the registers for crime, misconduct, etc.]:

7.25 p.m.

LORD SCRENSEN

This Amendment has already been discussed under Amendment No. 13. It goes with the Amendment at page 3, line 4, in that the Bill now strikes at bodies corporate controlled by disqualified persons as well as bodies managed by such persons or of which such persons are directors. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 22, after ("of") insert (`or has a controlling interest in ")—(Lord Sorensen.)

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 agreed to.

Clause 9 [Appeals]:

LORD SCIRENSEN

This Amendment is put down to comply with Scottish law. Apparently the Scots call costs "expenses", although I imagine a rose by any other name smells just as sweet. Anyhow, in order to defer to our Scottish brethren, I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 7. line 8, after ("cost") insert ("or expenses")—(Lord Sorensen.)

Clause 9, as amended, agreed

Clause 10 [Procedure of Disciplinary Committee]:

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment i purely drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 20. leave out ("dispensation") and insert ("dispensing")—(Lord Scrensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment is self-explanatory. Steps must be taken to ensure that persons affected by findings of the Disciplinary Committee are notified of them. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 8, line 30, at end insert— ("( ) for ensuring that persons likely to be affected by any finding of the Committee are duly notified of that finding:")—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

This Amendment, again, is the embodiment of a very valuable suggestion by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, and I therefore beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 38, leave out from ("organisations") to end of line 40 and insert (" as appear to the Council to be representative of the interests of dispensers of hearing aids or of persons employing such dispensers.")—(Lord Sorensen.)

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 11 agreed to.

Clause 12 [Expenses, receipts and accounts of the Council]:

LORD SORENSEN

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 40, leave out ("dispensation") and insert ("dispensing")—(Lord Sorensen.)

Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 13 agreed to.

Clause 14 [Interpretation]:

LORD SORENSEN moved, to leave out Clause 14 and insert the following new Clause:

Interpretation

"14. In this Act— dispenser of hearing aids" means an individual who conducts or seeks to conduct oral negotiations with a view to effecting the supply of a hearing aid, whether by him or another, to or for the use of a person with impaired hearing; and references to the dispensing of hearing aids or to acting as a dispenser of such aids shall be construed accordingly; employer of dispensers" includes any person who enters into any arrangement with an individual whereby that individual undertakes for reward or anticipation of reward to act as a dispenser with a view to promoting the supply of hearing aids by that person; and references to the employing of dispensers and their employment shall be construed accordingly; hearing aid" means an instrument intended for use by a person suffering from impaired hearing to assist that person to hear better but does not include any instrument or device designed for use by connecting conductors of electricity to equipment or apparatus provided for the purpose of affording means of telephonic communication; prescribed" means prescribed by rules made by the Council pursuant to section 4 of this Act; supply" means supply by way of retail sale or by way of hire: but does not include a sale to a person acquiring for the purposes of trade.

The noble Lord said: This new clause introduces a new set of definitions. The important points to note are that "dispensers" are people who try to sell by word of mouth. The definition includes persons trading on their own account and employees, agents or representatives of any sort. An "employer" is so defined as to exclude anyone who employs a person gratuitously. The definition of "hearing aid" is intended to exclude an instrument which the Post Office provide to enable persons with impaired hearing to hear better on the telephone. The definition of "prescribed" was suggested, again by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn. We think the definition of "supplied" includes hire purchase. The second and third lines make the position clear. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 14 and insert the said new clause.—(Lord Sorensen.)

Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15, agreed to.

Schedule [Constitution and Powers of the Council]:

LORD SORENSEN

I beg to move Amendment No. 38 formally.

Amendment moved—

Page 11, leave out paragraph 1 and insert— ("1.—(1) The Council shall consist of a Chairman and eleven other members who shall be appointed by the Board of Trade.

(2) The Board shall not appoint as Chairman a person who is in their opinion capable of representing any of the interests mentioned in sub-paragraph (3) of this paragraph.

(3) The Board shall when appointing persons as members of the Council ensure that the members of the Council include—

  1. (a) six persons who are capable of representing the interests of persons registered under section 2 of this Act and who are either so registered themselves or are directors of, or participate in the management of a body corporate which is so registered; and
  2. (b) five persons who are not eligible for appointment under head (a) of this subparagraph and who either have specialised medical knowledge of deafness or audiological technical knowledge or who are capable of representing the interests of persons with impaired hearing:

Provided that in relation to the appointing of persons before the expiry of six months from the commencement of this Act head (a), of sub-paragraph (3) of this paragraph shall have effect as if references to persons registered under section 2 included references to persons who are, in the opinion of the Board, eligible to be registered under that section; and ")(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

These lines are just bread and butter provisions. The proviso spells out what is meant on page 11, lines 9 and 10, by the Chairman having a single casting vote. The next paragraph amplifies the existing Paragraph 4 of the Schedule. The words are borrowed from the Opticians Act, where they are used in relation to the General Optical Council. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 11, line 29, leave out paragraph 4 and insert— (". The procedures of the Council in the discharge of its functions shall be such as the Council may from time to time determine:

Provided that the Chairman shall not have the right to vote at a meeting of the Council except in the event of an equality of votes on any question when the Chairman shall have a single casting vote.

The powers of the Council and any of its committees may be exercised notwithstanding any vacancy, and no proceedings of the Council or of any of its committees shall be invalidated by any defect in the appointment of a member.")—(Lord Sorensen.)

LORD SORENSEN

With permision, I beg to move Amendments 40 and 41 together. They are adaptations following hard on the Opticians Act and the provisions regarding the General Optical Council.

Amendments moved—

Page 11, line 31, leave out from ("registrar") to end of line 32.

Page 11, line 33, at end insert ("to d 3 anything which in the opinion of the Council is calculated to facilitate the proper discharge of its functions and shall in particular have power— ( ) to appoint in addition to the registrar such other officers and servants as the Council may determine;".—(Lord Sorensen.)

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

House resumed: Bill reported with Amendments.