§ 5.19 p.m.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received.
§ Moved, That the Report be now received.—(Lord silkin.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to, and Report received accordingly.
§ LORD SILKIN moved to leave out Clause 2 and insert the following new clause:
§ Provisions for exporting ponies
§ "2.—(1) The Minister shall by order make such provision as he thinks necessary or expedient for the following purposes—
- (a) for prohibiting the export of ponies by sea or air from any place in Great Britain to any place outside Great Britain unless such ponies are rested immediately before being loaded in the vessel or aircraft in which they are to be carried;
- (b) for prescribing the premises at which and the periods during which ponies are to be so rested;
- (c) for regulating the cleansing and supervision of such premises and the provision thereat of clean and sufficient bedding and adequate supplies of fodder and water.
§ (2) The provisions of section 85 of the Act of 1950 (which relate to orders made under that Act) shall, with any necessary adaptations and modifications, apply to orders made under the foregoing subsection."
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, it may save time if I remind the House that this Amendment and a number of others that I have put down all flow from the discussions we had in Committee on this Bill, when I gave an undertaking that I would consider all the Amendments which have been put down and that if need be I would put down at the Report stage Amendments to meet those points. I hope that I have done so. All these Amendments flow from the Committee stage of the Bill.
§ Amendment No. 1 seeks to remove Clause 2 and to substitute the new clause on the Marshalled List. It deals with the rest periods for ponies which are to be shipped or sent abroad by air and which may have travelled long distances. Its purpose is to ensure that they have a certain specific rest period before they are put aboard. The original Clause 2 suffered from a number of defects and met with a certain amount of criticism. For instance, it was argued 197 that a rest period was not necessary in all cases because sometimes ponies would have travelled a very short distance; and also that there were not always adequate facilities for resting the ponies close to the port of embarkation. I came to the conclusion that the best course to adopt was to give the Minister power to make such regulations dealing with rest periods as would be appropriate for each case. The Minister would be under no obligation, for example, to make a regulation dealing with Shetland ponies, if that were unnecessary or inappropriate, but he could from time to time make suitable regulations to secure that ponies had a rest period.
§ The new Clause 2 sets out in some detail the kind of regulations which the Minister is required to make. There is nothing novel about this procedure. Under the Diseases of Animals Act 1950 the Minister, in a number of clauses, is empowered to make regulations for the wellbeing of horses and ponies. If that Act had enabled him to make regulations of this kind in the case of ponies being exported, the proposed provision would not have been necessary in this Bill. But although there are a great variety of circumstances in which the Minister is empowered to make regulations, the exporting of ponies is not one of them. Therefore it is necessary to give the Minister specific power to make regulations for this purpose and that is the object of the Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 2 and insert the said new clause.—(Lord Silkin.)
§ LORD SWANSEAMy Lords, this new clause will go a long way to meet some of the objections which were raised to the original Clause 2 during the Committee stage. I think that the procedure for making Orders will be much more satisfactory and prove more flexible in its working. It is important that interested organisations, for example the breed societies, should have an opportunity to express their views on the conditions, contained in the Orders. As your Lordships know, when these Orders come before Parliament they may be passed or I rejected as they stand, but there is no power in either House to amend them. For that reason, I think it is important 198 that the interested organisations should be consulted. I have in mind to put down an Amendment on Third Reading to the effect that the Minister shall consult such organisations as appear to him to he representative. If the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, would care to indicate whether he would be receptive to such an Amendment, I should be happy to advise your Lordships to accept the present Amendment.
§ LORD SILK1NMy Lords, I have considerable sympathy with the object which the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, 'gas in mind. My difficulty is simply one of drafting. The 1950 Act, under which, as I have mentioned, a number of regulations have been made does not n any case require that there shall be consultation before regulations are laid, and these regulations would be the only ones requiring prior consultation. I do not know whether that is a fatal objection, but I should be glad if the noble Lord would put down such an Amendment and I will try to get the co-operation of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I personally would be sympathetic.
§ EARL FORTESCUEMy Lords, this Amendment gives the Minister power to make regulations. I think it is generally accepted that there are already a good many regulations, and if they had been properly en Forced we should have heard nothing of this Amendment and the Bill would not have been introduced. There has been negligence in the enforcement of regulations regarding the export of horses and ponies. If the Minister makes further regulations under this Bill I hope that they will be enforced.
§ LORD HILTON OF UPTONMy Lords, the House may recall that on Second Reading I gave the reasons why the Government object in principle to this Bill, and I do not intend to repeat now what I said then. The Amendments agreed in Committee and those now tabled by my noble friend Lord Silkin, do not change the basic aims of the Bill and therefore the Government's objection remains. On Second Reading my noble friend Lord Silkin referred to me as his "noble and unwilling friend". I remain unwilling, so far as this Bill is concerned. On Third Reading I may advise your Lordships to vote against the Bill, 199 but for the moment I propose to comment very briefly on the Amendments.
The proposed new Clause 2 would leave to the discretion of the Minister the detailed requirements for rest periods. I suppose that this is some improvement on the original clause, which laid down detailed requirements not all of which were appropriate. Nevertheless, the new clause would place an obligation on the Minister to use his existing powers under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1950, in a specified way. Moreover, the new clause is more restrictive than the existing one, because it applies the provisions regarding a rest period to all ponies leaving England, Scotland or Wales. This is a radical departure from the existing provisions for cattle, sheep and pigs, which do not apply to animals moved between Great Britain and the remainder of the United Kingdom, or between Great Britain and the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands. If a rest period for ponies is considered necessary it is difficult to see why more restrictive provisions should be applied to them than to the other species which I have mentioned. I should mention in this connection that there is very close contact on animal welfare matters between the officials in all the countries of the British Isles, and to a large extent they have a common approach.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 3 [Further restrictions on export of certain ponies]:
§ 5.29 p.m.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to exclude the Republic of Southern Ireland from the scope of the Bill. This was the subject of an Amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Swansea. I have considered the matter and I think that the noble Lord was right. I hope this Amendment is correctly drafted to carry out his intention. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 5, leave out from ("outside") to end of line 6 and insert ("Great Britain").— (Lord Silkin.)
§ LORD SWANSEAMy Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, cannot draft a clause correctly, I do not know who can. 200 Anyway, I am very grateful to him for this Amendment, which meets my previous point.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to meet an Amendment that was put down on Committee to provide that there should be a total prohibition of the export of ponies which appear to the inspector to be more than 12 years of age. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 8, at end insert ("or which, in the opinion of the inspector, is more than twelve years old").—(Lord Silkin.)
§ LORD HILTON OF UPTONMy Lords, as regards the proposed prohibition of the export of mares judged to be over 12 years of age, there are no veterinary grounds to support the view that these animals are unsuitable for breeding or riding. Moreover, it would be extremely difficult in practice to determine the age of a pony of around 12 years of age with any precision. By examining the teeth it is possible to assess the age of adult ponies up to about eight years with reasonable certainty, but beyond this point the task becomes progressively more difficult.
As the assumption underlying the Amendment is that ponies over 12 years of age will be slaughtered abroad because they are not fit for any other fate, the clause as amended has the unfortunate implication that slaughter awaits a pony sent from Great Britain to, say, the Isle of Man. More seriously, I wonder whether the provision for mares over 12 years old is consistent with the rest of the Bill. Clause 1 would prohibit the export of ponies for slaughter irrespective of their ages. Therefore there seems to be no reason for imposing an upper age limit on mares on the ground that animals over this limit could be going only for slaughter.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I do not wish to say much in reply to my noble friend, except to complain about the way in which he has dealt with these matters. These Amendments have been on the Order Paper for a week. He has not said a single word to me about them. He has never made any comment on any of the difficulties of drafting, as he puts it now. I challenge what he says about 201 the Isle of Man. I do not agree that the clause applies to transport between this country and the Isle of Man. Certainly it is not intended. If my noble friend were advised that that was the interpretation of these Amendments, I wish he had had the courtesy to let me know a few days ago, when I could have looked into the matter again and put it right. I will do so on Third Reading, but I hope that, as between good friends, we can conduct our discussions in a more civilised and respectful manner.
§ LORD SWANSEAMy Lords, in spite of the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hilton of Upton, I should like to refer him to something I said on Committee stage on this same point. Although I agree that it is difficult to tell the age of a pony over the age of eight or nine, by its teeth or by other means, most breeding societies have registration certificates on which the year of the birth of the pony is given. If that registration certificate or an export certificate similar in content, giving its year of birth, accompanies the pony, surely that is sufficient proof of the pony's age. A pony over 12 years, although it may have many years of usefulness ahead of it as a riding pony must have a fairly limited period of usefulness for breeding, and I should have thought that 12 years is a good age at which to draw the line for exporting ponies.
§ LORD HILTON OF UPTONMy Lords, I am sorry that I incurred the wrath of my noble friend Lord Silkin by the way I replied to his Amendments, but I am sure he will appreciate that there have been difficulties. It was last night before I knew that we were dealing with this Bill to-day, and in fact the House agreed only about three hours ago that we should take this stage of the Bill to-day. I am quite prepared to have discussions with my noble friend later on.
So far as young foals are concerned, I would remind your Lordships of the difficulties attaching to the determination of ages when they are only a few months old, and that the existing official inspection of ponies before embarkation will enable an animal to be rejected which in the opinion of the inspector is not old enough to be capable of travelling without suffering. I am not advising voting against the Amendment, but 202 I hope that on consideration my noble friend Lord Silkin may still feel it unnecessary to proceed further with the Bill.
§ LORD AIREDALEMy Lords, may I call the Minister's attention to the fact that we are on Report stage and customarily we are not allowed to make more than one speech in one debate. When we wish to make a second speech we must ask leave of the House.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, this Amendment also implements a point that was made on Committee. As the Bill stands, the export of ponies under six months of age is prohibited. It was thought that that age was a little high and that we might cut it down to five months. I have accepted that view, and this Amendment implements it. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 10, leave out ("six") and insert ("five").—(Lord Silkin.)
§ LORD SWANSEAMy Lords, this is a small improvement on the clause as it stood. I still have reservations about exporting foals in the year of their birth. I put down an Amendment to that effect on Committee stage but withdrew it when the noble Lord said that he would like to consider the point further. I am happy to accept his present Amendment and I hoc e that your Lordships will agree. But whatever minimum age is fixed, veterinary surgeons are only human, and sometimes they are tempted to pass foals at a lower age, perhaps because they do not know the true age of the foal or because, they cannot tell with certainty, or simply because they want to avoid trouble. The fact that the Ministry state with some degree of pride that only one foal has been stopped during the past 18 months speaks for itself. The whole system depends on proper enforcement and on vet; having the moral courage to put their finger on a foal and say, "That foal must not go."
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, this Amendment and No. 6 are both consequential upon Amendments that have already been passed. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 35, leave out ("two").—(Lord Silkin.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I beg to move this Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 35, leave out ("sections") and insert ("section").—(Lord Silkin.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.