§ 2.45 p.m.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I wonder whether I might ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House, whom I welcome (I thought there might have been something wrong with his smooth running and he might have already gone into Recess), this question? I understand that there have been 16 Amendments, some of them of considerable substance, put down on the Medicines Bill which your Lordships are due to debate later to-day on the Report stage, and that these were put down only late last night. That being so, is it the intention of the Government to continue with the Third Reading this afternoon?
§ THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (LORD SHACKLETON)My Lords, I hope your 161 Lordships continued to run smoothly on your own. I am quite sure that my noble friend Lord Kennet would be very happy to discuss this matter with the Opposition; indeed, I think that he has already offered to do so. It might be a good idea if we discussed this immediately. I am very conscious that difficulties can be created for the House in this sort of matter, and perhaps we could talk about it.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the House. I am quite prepared to discuss it, but I think I ought to make it quite plain that in these circumstances there can be no question of finishing this Bill to-day.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, may I add to what the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has said? I understand that it is proposed to take the Third Reading of this Bill to-night. I think this would be quite intolerable for those of us who are interested in it, particularly in view of the fact that we received some important Amendments only this morning.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, if I may say so, I very much appreciate the points both noble Lords have made. Before we come to any definite view on this, I wonder whether we could look at them to see whether real difficulties are created. I would certainly take into account what the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, said, and if it is inappropriate to take the Third Reading to-day we will not do so. Before we come to a final conclusion—it is a long time since I had to stand in sackcloth and ashes in your Lordships' House; perhaps I had better adjust my attire accordingly, and if necessary I am prepared to do so—if we could examine these Amendments, I am quite sure that we could come to a sensible conclusion. The last thing I would want is your Lordships to feel that even if another place is on holiday we are not taking our work seriously.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, of course we will discuss it with the noble Lord the Leader of the House, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, but I must say I think it is quite intolerable that Amendments of substance should be put down and noble Lords should have an opportunity of seeing them only first thing this morning. It means that there 162 has been no opportunity for my noble friend who is in charge of this Bill to have any discussions with those who are interested in the Bill outside this House. I think noble Lords opposite and the Government ought not to do this sort of thing. I have a feeling that sackcloth and ashes is all very well. but in this case we really must insist that we have proper time to discuss this Bill.
§ LARD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I may be disposed to take off the sackcloth and ashes if the noble Lord wishes to take this approach. I am offering perfectly seriously to have sensible discussions on this here and now. The noble Lord has made his protest which may well be, and I suspect is, justified, but we find ourselves confronted with these difficulties, and we have found ourselves confronted with these difficulties in the past. I would only suggest that we now look at the situation and arrive at what is a fair, equitable, convenient solution.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, while accepting that, surely there is no question of taking the Third Reading to-day. That would be quite impossible.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, the point is very firmly taken, and I think we might discuss that also. When noble Lords look at the particular issues they may be content to have a Third Reading. I have noted very carefully what noble Lords have said, and I hope they will not press me too hard.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I do not want to press the noble Lord, but I am really telling him, if I may say so, that we are not going to take the Third Reading to-day. My noble friend has not had any opportunity of consulting anybody about this matter, and a lot of people are interested in the Bill. It is not reasonable that this should happen. Of course we will talk with the noble Lord, but we will not take Third Reading to-day.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, the noble Lords, who have been well aware of this situation for several hours, might also have given notice to the Government on it.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, if we are talking about the Government, I do not want to make any disclosure, but I 163 did have a word with the noble Lord's noble friend on this point, and I said I was disturbed at the idea of a Third Reading tonight. It was the first time I knew that we were intending to have a Third Reading tonight, and I said so. So if he is going to complain about it, I think his complaints are not too well founded.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, may I remind the noble Lord, the Leader of the House, that it is a rule of this House that if you want to amend a Bill on Third Reading you must have printed Amendments before the House? It is clearly impossible, after the Report stage to-day, to have printed Amendments that may be needed on the Third Reading. It seems to be impossible, unless we break our own Standing Orders and rules.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, knows that I am well aware of our rules in this matter. He is also well aware that we frequently take Third Reading immediately after Report. It entirely depends on whether it suits the convenience of the House. We are very willing between now and the end of the Report stage to see whether in fact it is more convenient, and I promise we shall have full regard to the wishes of the House in this matter.
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I remind your Lordships that an excellent dinner will be available from 7 until 8.30 this evening.