§ 11.12 a.m.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the total aid of all kinds made to Zambia over the past four years; on what grounds further assistance, if any, is now proposed; and what is the amount of such further assistance.]
1392§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD SHEPHERD)My Lords, nearly £51 million; of which £8 million for development and £1.2 million for defence equipment promised in 1965 has not yet been disbursed. No further capital assistance has been committed, but technical assistance, mainly to pay for the cost of expatriate staff, is currently running at something over £3 million per annum. On the question of further contingency support I would refer the noble Lord to the written reply given by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister on July 23.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he recalls that there was reported to this House recently advances of up to £24 million to Tanzania? Those, together with the figures he has just quoted, are massive contributions by the United Kingdom taxpayer. Does he not think that there is imprudence in giving such large amounts to two countries which are aggressively projecting into the territories of their neighbours, Mozambique and Rhodesia, the Communist trained so-called "freedom fighters", alias terrorists; and does he not think that this could be a greater threat to the peace of Central Africa than the significant law and order maintained in Rhodesia by the de facto Government?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord has his own views. They are without substance, and I do not believe his views are shared by his noble friends on the other side of the House.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, while the noble Lord may feel that there is a moral aspect involved in this and therefore the question of cost must be secondary, will he and the Government bear in mind that if we in the United Kingdom dribble away and expend our resources all over the world we shall ourselves be too weak to exercise any moral influence anywhere?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I do not accept that. It may be that we have our own economic difficulties, some of which may have been made by ourselves over past years, but these territories are territories in urgent need of help and if we can develop their economies in the end world trade itself must expand.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, is it not a fact that Zambia has probably had to bear a larger burden, perhaps the largest, of the sanctions policy against Rhodesia, and in view of Zambia's loyalty to our Government in seeking to overthrow the illegal regime is my noble friend aware that many of us highly appreciate the agreement which has been reached between President Kaunda and our Government during his recent visit?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I feel more attuned to what the noble Lord has said than some of the views I have heard expressed on other occasions.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, would not the Minister agree that the sentiments expressed by the two noble Lords opposite just now are not only unimaginative but simply ludicrous when we compare the situation in countries like Zambia and countries like ours.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, could the noble Lord give any breakdown of the original figure to indicate how much of the money advanced to Zambia has arisen directly as a result of the sanctions policy?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I should be most happy to give that information. Of the £51 million, some £24 million was for contingency support arising directly from sanctions; £14.75 million for capital development; some £8 million for technical assistance to provide topping-up for the expatriates, some 3,000 expatriate British civil servants who now work in Zambia; £2 million for defence aid, and a further £2 million for special financial aid compensation to the British South Africa Company.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, does the noble Lord on the Front Bench agree with the noble Baroness behind him that it is unimaginative to stand up for a moral matter if you are not strong enough to stand up at all?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I would not accept that we are not strong enough to stand up; we clearly are. I did not reply to my noble friend because I thought the point she had made was far better left unanswered.