§ 3.52 p.m.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to bring to your Lordships' notice a Statement which my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has made in another place about an urban programme. I will use his own words.
"The Government have now completed the first stage of their study of urban areas facing acute social problems in the fields of education, housing, health and welfare. Many of these areas include concentrations of immigrants.
"The study shows that large and expanding programmes are already having an impact in each of the main social services concerned and that in education and housing in particular, and in areas of immigrant settlement, priorities have been established within existing policies to increase the flow of aid to particular areas of special need. Nevertheless there remain areas of severe social deprivation in a number of our cities and towns—often scattered in relatively small pockets. They require special help to meet their social needs and to bring their physical services to an adequate level.
"The Government propose to initiate an urban programme to help tackle the social problems of the communities concerned. Action be required on a number of fronts and the programme must necessarily, be a continuing one. I propose to open discussions with the local authority associations and seek their co-operation in working out the basis on which help can most effectively be provided. Corresponding discussions in Scotland would he carried out by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. But I can inform the House that the Government are 687 prepared to introduce legislation at the earliest opportunity to provide a new specific grant, in addition to the existing Rate Support Grant, to assist this programme. Under Section 11 of the Local Government Act 1966 grants are already payable in respect of expenditure on staff in areas of immigrant settlement. The new grant will be payable to other areas, including any in Scotland, that meet the necessary conditions, and in respect of any item of expenditure falling within the programme. Its percentage rate will be a matter for discussion with the local authority associations. Subject to Parliament passing the necessary legislation, the new grant will be payable retrospectively on expenditure incurred under the programme in the present financial year. The extra cost of this new and additional aid has been set against general economies made in the course of the normal processes of managing the public expenditure programme.
"Meanwhile, to ensure an early start in launching the programme, the Government are prepared to sanction expenditure of some £20 million to £25 million over the next four years, starting forthwith. They propose to select a number of local authorities where it is already clear that urgent needs exist and to settle direct with them projects which could proceed with least delay. In the first year it is expected that these projects will be mainly in the field of nursery education and child-care and will cover the provision of buildings, staff, equipment and other items of expenditure.
"The purpose of this programme is to supplement the Government's other social and legislative measures in order to ensure as far as we can that all our citizens have an equal opportunity in life."
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I am sure we are all grateful to the noble Lord for that Statement, and glad of the news in it of this positive approach to areas of social need, an approach which will help coloured immigrants by helping equally all those who share their deprivation. I am sure this is the only right, the only wise, approach to harmonious relations in our towns and cities where social need 688 is greatest and where large numbers of coloured immigrants happen to be. But we should nevertheless like an assurance that the Government are sticking firmly to the policy which they set out in Cmnd. 2739, that it would be wrong to give special treatment to immigrants—wrong, I think, and unwise.
The Statement says at the beginning that the existing policies are designed to increase the flow of aid to particular areas of special need. It just so happens that only last night I was talking to the chairman of a county health and welfare committee, and I believe her experience to be similar to many others: that the question now facing local authorities is what things to cut in order to keep within their budget. Generally speaking, I do not think local authorities are in a situation of receiving increased flows in aid. Nevertheless this particular special grant will be welcome.
The second part of the Statement indicates that the Government are preparing legislation in consultation with local authorities, and that they will award these supplementary grants in accordance with that procedure. It then goes on to say that meanwhile there is going to be an early start, and the Government are sanctioning special expenditure; and that they have selected certain fields in which this grant is going to fall—nursery education and child care.
They say, also, (this is the point that I should be grateful if the noble Lord could clear up) that the amount of this immediate grant to get things going falls at £20 million over the next four years, which is £5 million per annum; this, in area of education, housing, health and welfare, where expenditure is running at between £4,000 million and £5,000 million a year is an increase of 0.1 per cent. I should be grateful to know whether I have my perspective roughly right, because this increase is not really very significant. I presume, therefore, that the increase to be granted under legislation that is coming in will be considerably higher. Would it be right to assume that it would be something like 10 times the amount? If so, it would be very welcome; if less, I doubt whether it would have very much effect.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, before my noble friend replies, I wonder whether I could ask a question. Surely the proposals in the Statement which he 689 has just made, and which has been made in another place, would apply not only to places where there are coloured immigrants but also to cities like Glasgow where there are comparatively few coloured immigrants. Is it not the fact that the Statement does not apply only to places where there are coloured immigrants?
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, I should like to welcome the Statement and to thank the Minister for making it. Certainly we welcome the principle behind it, that all citizens should be given an equal opportunity in life. May I just ask two questions? First, since education, housing, health and welfare are all involved here, which Ministry is going to be responsible for approving expenditure without unnecessary delay? Secondly, to whom should local authorities, other than those selected by the Government, apply to be considered for assistance and help?
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, before my noble friend replies would he give the House an assurance that the whole of this money which is to be made available will be clearly in addition to, and over and above, the present overall ceiling of local expenditure; and also that it is not tied in any way to any additional rate-borne expenditure?
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, further to the last question, may I have an assurance that the school building programme from nurseries to secondary schools is not in any way going to be set back by this new programme and, therefore, that it is a clear addition? Secondly, have the Government published, and, if not, will they publish, the criteria on which these additional grants can be given? I feel that it is very unfair on local authorities not to know exactly the terms on which they can qualify.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Sandford and Lord Byers, for the welcome they have given to this Statement, and to the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, for his comment that it was a wise approach. My Lords, let me say at once to my noble friend Lady Gaitskell that this programme does not apply only to places where there are coloured immigrants. The sole criterion 690 is need, and it will apply to areas where there is need, in some cases where there are very few immigrants at all. This, therefore, answers the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, when he asked for an assurance that we are sticking to the policy of not giving special treatment to immigrants. This is absolutely clear and, I hope, unequivocable.
The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, asked the Government to publish the criteria. I would say to him that, so far as the details are concerned, these are still a matter for discussion with the, local authorities concerned but with regard to "generalities", if I may put it that way, we are trying to cure disabilities in certain places where there is evidence of need. Those disabilities are poor schools overcrowded or segregated housing, children in trouble, persistent unemployment, overloaded social and welfare services. They are the areas. I would also assure him, and assure my noble friend Lord Pargiter, that this is new money, extra money, and that existing programmes are not thereby affected. We are not. as it were, robbing Bournemouth to help Birmingham. There is no question of that. This is new money, and it is additional.
The noble Lord, Lord Byers, asked me about education, and so on: which Minister would approve these various expenditures. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary will be in a large measure coordinating. So far as approval for individual projects is concerned, that will be a matter for Departments, but I would emphasise again that this is new money. The noble Lord, Lord Sandford, expressed the view that this was only £20 million to £25 million in four years, and that the total would not be significant. I disagree with him. This is additional to the very large and increasing amount of aid given already to local authority services, and it will be directed particularly to those areas of need (using the word "area" in the sense of a geographical area), and also those services which are worst in those areas and most in need of help.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, would my noble friend also reply to the point I raised, of whether this would be tied in any way to additional rate-borne expenditure on the part of the authority, or would it be completely free of that?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, the question of the percentage of grant has still to be worked out with the local authorities.
§ VISCOUNT STUART OF FINDHORNMy Lords, as no discussions have yet taken place, and no agreement has yet been reached with the local authorities, nobody has the slightest idea how much it is going to cost to achieve this no doubt admirable object. Would it not be wiser of the Government, therefore, to postpone their bogus vote-catching schemes until they have some sort of idea of what legislation and arrangements are going to be carried through?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I should hope that that kind of remark would be regarded as uncharacteristic of your Lordships' House. In times of general economic stringency like this, I think it is a considerable achievement to have put aside, by savings or by non-expenditure elsewhere, the sum of £20 million to £25 million to meet what is an acute need, and to do something which I think will present very great dividends in the relief of suffering, and also in the easing of tensions and the prevention of trouble which might otherwise occur. I hope that this will be generally welcomed, not only in this House but throughout the country.
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, I welcome very much the idea of special help of this kind, but £20 million to £25 million over four years is really very little. Would it not be better to take one thing like nursery schools, and do it properly? if this total is spread right round, the butter will be so thin that no-one will really know that anything extra has happened.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, the noble Viscount, with his experience, must have remembered many times when he could have done a very great deal with £25 million, even over four years. This is a continuing business. This is the money that we are able to provide now, additional to the quite large sums which are already being spent. I think that it will achieve a good deal, particularly when, as we intend, it is applied to those areas with acute need, many of which are not receiving special grant. I think we shall have to see how it works out, but everything that all noble Lords have 692 said will, of course, be taken into account.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, could the noble Lord say whether the local authority will be able to decide, if they have got X pounds from the Government, how they will spend it? Whether they wish to spend it all on nursery schools, or on housing, or whatever it is, will the decision of how the extra money shall be spent be left to the local authority?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, the answer to the noble Baroness is that the local authorities will have to establish a need in particular fields. Then, if they establish that need in relation to one or more particular fields—it may be only nursery education, as the noble Viscount Lord Eccles, suggested, or it may be things like inadequate welfare services —once the discussions have been held, and agreement is reached, the local authority will of course be able to spend the extra grant in the manner they have decided.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, we do not want to look a gift horse in the mouth, but the question I asked the noble Lord was whether I would be right in making the snap calculation that £4 million or £5 million a year is 0.1 per cent. of local authority expenditure in these fields. If he could say, "Yes" or "No", or that it ought to be some other figure, we would know where we were. The second question I asked him was how much more than that figure will be the grant which is made available under the legislation to be introduced. The figure of £20 million to £25 million a year over four years, £4 or £5 million a year, is all that is to be available to keep the thing going. Presumably, some much larger sum is in store under the legislation.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, as to the figure of 20 million to £25 million, the fact that it is between one and the other is an indication that it is not yet absolutely determined. That figure indicates the level of additional expenditure which the Government are prepared to approve. With regard to what follows on that, or what may happen coterminously with it, has yet to be decided. With regard to the noble Lord's point about its being 0.1 per cent. of the total 693 expenditure in these fields at present, I do not think that it is very relevant; neither would I accept that the total of £4,000 million is directly relevant to this expenditure of £5 million, which will be over a more restricted field both geographically and in the areas of the services which will be strengthened.
§ VISCOUNT STUART OF FINDHORNMy Lords, I suppose that this will be paid out of the already excessive National Debt. Or will it be paid for by the abolition of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and the Scots Guards?