HL Deb 11 July 1968 vol 294 cc1079-81

3.6 p.m.

LORD JACKSON OF BURNLEY

My Lords, I beg leave to the ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what matters the Advisory Council for Technology of the Ministry of Technology discusses and when a report of its activities may be expected.]

THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (LORD SHACKLETON)

My Lords, the Advisory Council on Technology meets to advise generally on the policies of the Ministry. Its proceedings, at which the Minister takes the chair, are necessarily confidential. Matters discussed include those of immediate interest as well as important long-term policy issues which involve the work of the Department. For these reasons, a report of the Council's activities would not be practicable.

LORD JACKSON OF BURNLEY

My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for his reply, may I say that I find it disappointing? It confirms the impression—

LORD SHACKLETON

The noble Lord should ask a question.

LORD JACKSON OF BURNLEY

Is the noble Lord aware that I find his answer disappointing? Will it not confirm the impression of quite a number of people who are deeply interested in the activities of the Ministry of Technology and deeply appreciative of the complexity and difficulty of the many problems it has to deal with, but who feel that it keeps too close to its chest the means by which it reaches its decisions? May I ask the noble Lord whether he does not think there is more merit in the arrangements which exist within the corresponding Council of the Department of Education and Science, the Council for Scientific Policy, which was established at the same time as the Ministry of Technology's Council, which has already issued two reports, and which has as a representative on it a member from the Technology Council? May I ask whether it would not be appropriate for this member at least to make a report to the Council for Scientific Policy?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I think that the noble Lord was overdoing it a little. The fact that the two bodies were established at the same time does not necessarily mean that they exercise similar functions. The other Council has a specific obligation to report. The Advisory Council for Technology is an advisory body to advise the Minister, and I feel that the noble Lord has really misconceived its purpose. Having looked at some of the subjects that this Advisory Council has discussed, it is quite obvious to me that it exists to help in formulating policy and advising the Minister personally, rather than to issue independently arrived at views which could be the subject of a report. I assure the noble Lord that it would not be appropriate for this particular body to do so.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, could not the noble Lord give us some indication of the subjects which this Council has recently been discussing?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I have a very long list if the noble Earl wants to hear it. It has discussed such matters as the Government's industrial policy, the Ministry's research policy, the "Brain-drain" Report, international technological co-operation, public purchasing and industrial efficiency—all the kind of matters on which it is sometimes helpful for a Minister to get advice from those outside his Department. It is quite clear that this is the purpose of this particular body.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that there is great interest in these very important subjects, and that the noble Lord has made a good point for issuing a report?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I think the noble Earl has misconceived the idea of this Council. Surely it is possible for a Minister to appoint people to advise him. I think most of us would welcome the idea of Ministers' having some outside advice. But to require thereafter that they should report on the advice they give seems to me to be rather overdoing it. There are a great many reports in this field.

LORD CARRON

My Lords, as an exmember of the Advisory Council, may I ask whether the Minister would not agree that if matters discussed were not regarded as confidential many of the advisers to the Minister from industry would not be prepared to speak as clearly as they do at present?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, the noble Lord has strengthened the case of direct knowledge. It is quite correct.

LORD ERROLL OF HALE

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would say whether the Minister ever takes the advice tendered by the Council.

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