§ 2.39 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, having regard to the continuing deadlock in the Middle East and the consequent danger to world peace, they will propose to the United Nations that an international loan should now be raised through the World Bank for the purpose of irrigating land at present occupied by Israel, and settling Arab refugees upon it, without prejudice to the terms of any future peace settlement.]
§ LORD CHALFONTNo, my Lords. It would not be appropriate, or indeed helpful, for Her Majesty's Government to make any proposals for a Middle Eastern settlement while the special representative of the Secretary General, Mr. Jarring, is himself engaged in discussions in the area.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. May I ask him whether he thinks there is really any chance of a peace settlement so long as the Russians continue to arm Egypt and Syria, and also whether he thinks we can be content to see this refugee problem drag on for ever? May I also ask whether the Foreign Office have paid any attention to your Lordships' debate last summer, upon a Motion moved by the Leader of the Liberal Party, in which many noble Lords in all parts of the House who have special knowledge of this subject spoke?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I think the question of the supply of arms to the Middle East goes slightly outside the confines of the original Question, although I should be pleased to answer a Question on that subject if the noble Earl would care to ask one. So far as the refugee problem is concerned, I do not think it would be possible to make any proposals for settling Arab refugees on land presently occuped by the Israelis without prejudice to the terms of the future peace settlement. It is of course 128 precisely these two questions—the refugee problem and the fate of the territories at present occupied by Israel—that are likely to be major issues in the making of any peace settlement at all.
Of course the Foreign Office have paid the greatest attention to the debate in your Lordships' House, as they always do; but I think we must accept that a solution to the refugee problem, on which so many interesting and moving things were said in your Lordships' House, is bound to be a central part, as I have said, of any Israeli-Arab settlement, and I do not think it would be helpful for me to comment on this while Mr. Jarring is conducting his mission.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, while we appreciate very much my noble friend's point as regards refugees in the Middle East—and this is undoubtedly an outstanding problem which must be dealt with before any peace terms can be accepted—could he say whether, now that we have a representative in Cairo, there is any prospect of getting the Arab States to recognise the State of Israel? Because I think it will be generally accepted that this is the first prerequisite before there can be any possible peace settlement, or any real effort made to re-house these unfortunate people who are refugees in that part of the world.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, now that we have re-established diplomatic relations with the United Arab Republic and have an Ambassador there, of course we shall make the fullest possible use of him in representing our views to the Government of Egypt. I think the question of the recognition of Israel by the United, Arab Republic—a difficult and complicated question—again goes slightly outside the framework of the original Question. So far as these refugees are concerned, I must repeat that Her Majesty's Government have a great interest in, and concern for, the fate of these refugees, but I would make the point that it is not only the Governments of the countries concerned which have to be consulted here. Any resettlement scheme for Arab refugees must take account of the wishes of the individuals themselves. This is not simply a Government-to-Government matter.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while I appreciate all the considerations that 129 my noble friend has put forward, may I ask him whether he will give particular attention to the constructive proposal made by the noble Earl, Lord Dundee? Is it not the case that if these territories were under the auspices of the United Nations it might not prejudice any peace settlement, and that any agreement regarding the settlement of the refugees would be a tremendous contribution to an ultimate solution of this problem?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, of course we will take into account the suggestion of the noble Earl and any other constructive suggestion made in your Lordships' House. But on this question of placing any territories in the Middle East under the United Nations administration or of establishing an international zone, I think I must say that it really is not for Her Majesty's Government to make proposals regarding the transfer of the sovereign territory of another State. But certainly we will bear in mind all suggestions made in this House.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that about two months ago I asked him whether he would use his good offices to see that before the cold weather came in these new refugees were accommodated other than in tents? Can he tell me whether they are still in tents, or whether he has kept his promise?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I always try to keep promises made either here or anywhere else. We have certainly kept a careful eye on the situation in the Middle East. I ask my noble friend to agree with me that it would not be helpful for me to comment in your Lordships House on resettlement of any kind while a United Nations' special representative is engaged on a mission in the Middle East for just this very purpose.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, could my noble friend give me an answer as to whether the refugees are still in tents?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I cannot give that answer. I do not have the information by me. I will get it, and my noble friend will have an answer before to-morrow evening.
§ BARONESS BIRKMy Lords, is my noble friend aware—I returned from Israel yesterday—that I have had the opportunity of seeing many refugee camps in the Gaza Strip and on the West Bank of Jordan? In fact, the refugees are not in tents but in houses. They are barrack-like buildings; certainly not tents.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that information. I have no doubt that this information exists in the Foreign Office. I am only sorry that I did not have it by me when my noble friend Lady Summerskill asked her supplementary question.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, may I ask the Minister a further question? Supposing the Israelis themselves begin to do this, would the Government think it appropriate that they should ask the United Nations for any help in doing so?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, answering hypothetical questions is a dangerous business at any time. At tips particular time, with the United Nations' representative in the area, it would be even more unwise.