HL Deb 29 February 1968 vol 289 cc900-2

2.37 p.m.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what results they have achieved in transferring labour from service to manufacturing industry.]

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS (LORD WINTERBOTTOM)

My Lords, there are indications that the Government's policies may be achieving the effect to which the noble Lord refers. The Government will be better placed to judge the effects of the policies after the mid-1967 employment estimates have been studied. Changes in employment between mid-1966 and mid-1967 may however not be by themselves a completely satisfactory basis for assessing the effects of the policies.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him two supplementary questions? First of all, is it not a fact that something like a quarter of a million people who were employed in manufacturing industry at the time when the selective employment tax was introduced are now unemployed? Secondly, may I ask the noble Lord what are the indications to which he referred when he said that the policy is achieving the results expected?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, there is a drop in manufacturing industry, as is generally known. There has been a rise in unemployment. Therefore, there has been a drop in employment both in manufacturing and in the service industries. What is of importance is the relative change in these two groups of industries. As regards the second point that the noble Lord made, as he probably knows figures should have appeared in to-day's Ministry of Labour Gazette. Due to a failure which was not a human failure, they will not be available for one or two days. If the noble Lord cares to put down a Question towards the end of March, perhaps it will be possible to give him a more informed analysis of what the trends show. As he will realise, we are in fact working on the first nine months' figures following the introduction of S.E.T. and are about seven months in arrears. But by the end of March we may be able to give a more intelligent answer to the point he has made.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, arising out of that reply, so that we may see the thing in perspective, could the noble Lord tell us by how much the Civil Service has gone up or gone down since Her Majesty's present Government initiated this policy?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, that is quite another question, which I should be pleased to answer if the noble Lord would put it down.

VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that when the selective employment tax was introduced for the alleged purpose of moving people from service industries into manufacturing industries, in actual fact there were on the average two people in manufacturing industry doing the job of one?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, that again is another question.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, in the meantime, is the noble Lord able to give an indication of the relativities between the fall of employment in distribution and the fall of employment in manufacturing? Can he give the proportion of the fall in each case?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I could give a figure which is very approximate, but I should be grateful if the noble Lord would retable his question in two or three weeks' time when we will have been able to analyse the out-turn which comes from the analysis of National Insurance cards handed in and exchanged at the end of June. Unfortunately, the computer on which these calculations are made was indisposed over the weekend. The figures which should have appeared in to-day's Ministry of Labour Gazette have not in fact appeared. If the noble Lord could ask the question again we may be able to give him a much better-informed answer. But the significant point is that we know at this stage that, unlike the two previous periods of recession in our experience, for the first time employment in the distributive trades has dropped and not risen.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply, and I shall do as he suggests.