EXPORT OF HORSES AND PONIES (Hansard, 28 February 1968)

§ LORD GRANVILLE OF EYE
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ LORD HILTON OF UPTON
My Lords, in terms of numbers handled, the main ports in Great Britain used for the export of horses are Great Yarmouth, Felixstowe, Dover, Harwich and Southampton. Officially approved facilities for watering are available at these ports. The arrangements for feeding, while provided for during transit, do not necessarily have to be carried out at the port of embarkation and officially approved feeding facilities are not therefore required. A rest period for horses, including ponies, prior to export is not compulsory but the Department's veterinary inspectors are empowered to prescribe rest or other treatment if necessary.
Horses, including ponies, requiring veterinary examination may be exported only from ports where officially approved facilities exist. Of the ports named, only Harwich has these facilities, but they also exist at Hull and Leith. Veterinary surgeons are not specially appointed to examine horses. These duties are undertaken by the Department's whole time veterinary staff. The inspection of ships 781 after loading is the responsibility of the local authorities.

§ LORD GRANVILLE OF EYE
My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that there is a strong feeling, if not evidence, that these regulations to which he has referred are just not being carried out, and that these domestic animals are often herded on ships without proper veterinary supervision, resulting in injuries? May I further ask my noble friend, in view of the undertaking he gave on the Second Reading of the Bill introduced by my noble friend Lord Silkin, whether he will ask his right honourable friends the Minister of Agriculture and the President of the Board of Trade, if they will now make a full and complete departmental investigation into this trade and traffic in animals on board ship?

§ LORD HILTON OF UPTON
Yes, my Lords. My noble friend referred to cruelty while these animals are being exported. It is true that from time to time there have been rumours, but my right honourable friend the Minister has never had any positive evidence of cruelty to either ponies or any other animals while they are being exported. If my noble friend could produce any evidence, my right honourable friend would be only too pleased to look into the matter, and, if necessary, take action. We believe that at the moment the situation is well covered, but I will put up the second part of my noble friend's suggestion to my right honourable friend, and I am sure that he will do his best to have the inquiry for which my noble friend has asked.

§ LORD GRANVILLE OF EYE
My Lords, in view of the extreme difficulty in obtaining anybody to come forward to give evidence, will the noble Lord ask his right honourable friend whether he will make a full Departmental Inquiry into this matter?

§ LORD HILTON OF UPTON
My Lords, my right honourable friend's Department has already made inquiries into this aspect of the complaints, but I am sure that if I point out to him the concern of my noble friend he will undertake a further inquiry.

§ LORD GRANVILLE OF EYE
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ LORD HILTON OF UPTON
My Lords, the total numbers of horses, including ponies, exported from the United Kingdom were as follows: in 1964, 7,217; in 1965, 8,087; and in 1966, 9,000.

§ LORD GRANVILLE OF EYE
My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his reply, may I ask whether it would be convenient to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the main countries to which these domestic animals are being exported so that we may know where they are going, even if we are not able to find out exactly the purposes for which they are being exported?

§ LORD HILTON OF UPTON
My Lords, I cannot promise to supply my noble friend with this information, but if the information is available I will certainly ask my right honourable friend to do as my noble friend suggests.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, is it possible to break down the figure for ponies and horses? Are separate categories kept for those over 14 hands and those of less than 14 hands?

§ LORD HILTON OF UPTON
My Lords, I will certainly put the point to my right honourable friend, and if it is possible, as I think it is, to break the figures down I will certainly do that.

§ EARL FORTESCUE
My Lords, may I ask the Minister one or two supplementary questions? Is the traffic in horses and ponies seasonal? How many sailings are there in the course of a year, and are the ponies examined or only inspected by the veterinary officers at the ports? Further, what is the percentage of casualties en route, and what facilities are there for dealing with such occurrences as, say, the occasional broken leg which must sometimes occur?

§ LORD HILTON OF UPTON
My Lords, in regard to the majority of the 783 points made by the noble Earl, I regret that I am unable to give the information for which he asks. As to whether or not it is a seasonal trade, or whether the ponies are examined or inspected I cannot tell the noble Earl, but I will certainly get the answer and pass it on to him.

§ LORD GRANVILLE OF EYE
My Lords, arising out of that answer, may I further ask my noble friend whether he would ask his right honourable friend if a report could be sent to his Department whenever serious injuries have been caused on board ship by the herding together of these domestic animals?

§ LORD HILTON OF UPTON
My Lords, I note my noble friend's question.

§ LORD LEATHERLAND
My Lords, for the purposes of clarification, since I, too, was interested in the Ponies Bill, can my noble friend tell me whether the figures of exports relate solely to animals which are exported for the purpose of being permanently domiciled abroad, or whether they include race-horses which go on short trips, say, to France to be beaten by French race-horses there?

§ LORD HILTON OF UPTON
My Lords, the ponies and horses to which I referred are of no particular size, and once the horses are exported to another country I am afraid that we on this side have no jurisdiction over them.