§ 3.7 p.m.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government why they think £250,000 is a sufficient contribution from this country to ease the civilian suffering in South Vietnam.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government's primary concern has been to provide immediately effective assistance not only financially but in other ways as well. Our efforts have been warmly welcomed in Vietnam.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply so far as it goes, but it does not really answer my Question, which was: why do the Government think that the sum of £250,000 is a sufficient contribution from this country?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I think we have to look at this question both in terms of the need in Vietnam, which is great, and in terms of what we can do to meet that need in the light of our resources. Our view is that skilled manpower, backed up by necessary supplies, is the main requirement, rather than just money, and we think that the most useful form of help will be to increase the deployment and scope of our medical team in Saigon. As the noble Lord will know, qualified personnel, especially doctors, ready to go to Saigon are not easily found, but we are engaged in increasing the size of our medical assistance to Vietnam at the moment.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether any other countries besides ourselves and America have made any contribution towards this aid, and, if so, how much?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I am afraid that I cannot give the answer to that question "off the cuff", so to speak, because it is slightly wide of the original Question, which is about aid given by Her Majesty's Government. But I can find that out, and I will let the noble Earl know.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether this £250,000 covers the cost of men and supplies that we are sending, or is it quite separate?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, part of the £250,000 is designed to cover the cost of some supplies and some personnel we are sending. But we really have to look at this problem not only in terms of the need in Vietnam but also in terms of what we can afford to provide.
§ LORD MOYNIHANMy Lords, I have four supplementary questions which I should like to ask the noble Lord on this subject. The first is this. Is he aware that Aid Estimates to South Vietnam from the Ministry of Overseas Development for 1967–68 already run to £367,000, and that the £250,000 will be extra? Secondly, is the noble Lord aware that there are many of us who feel that this sum is insufficient? Thirdly, why is there no Government aid to aid civilians suffering in North Vietnam? Fourthly, is it the Government's view that women and children bleed, feel pain and suffer less if they live under a Communist régime?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, it would take me a little time to sort out the four questions the noble Lord has asked. I think the first question was one about which I can say I am grateful to the noble Lord for asking it, because it points out that the £250,000 is an extra contribution, in addition to the normal overseas aid. I am aware that a number of noble Lords think that this is insufficient. I can only return to my former answer, which is that we must here reconcile need and resources. So far as the last two questions are concerned, I think that the last question, certainly, was intended to be rhetorical, and I shall 559 treat it as such. Of course we have no such belief, if I understood the noble Lord correctly. Perhaps I had better make it clear: we do not think that people suffer less in this kind of operation because they are under a Communist régime. Of course everybody suffers equally and everybody suffers awfully. Whatever may be the facts about the aid we supply to Vietnam, we should like, as everybody in this House would like, to see this awful war brought to an end as soon as possible.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, is there not a great deal more suffering under a Communist régime?
§ LORD MOYNIHANMy Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for the three perfectly satisfactory replies he gave and repeat the fourth question—it was in fact the third in the order in which I gave them. Why is there no Government aid to aid civilians suffering in North Vietnam?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I think the difficulties implicit in this Government's giving aid to the people who are suffering in North Vietnam are obvious enough without my having to elaborate them in your Lordships' House.
§ LORD MOYNIHANMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that the Vietnam Disaster Emergency Committee have managed to get £50,000 to go to the Red Cross organisation of the National Liberation Front and North Vietnam through the Russian Red Cross? It is possible for the Government to do something along those lines?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I must confess that I was not aware of that, and I am grateful for the information, but I prefer not to comment on it any further at this stage.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that suffering knows no frontiers?
§ LORD CHALFONTYes, my Lords.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, in view of what 560 he said about the shortage of doctors, is my noble friend aware that if there were more money available there would be many people willing to go there?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I am not sure that I entirely take the point of my noble friend's question. I think that even if there were more money we should still find it difficult to obtain qualified people to go. The fact is that, money or no money, it is difficult to find qualified doctors and nurses who are prepared to go to Saigon. I am delighted to know it, if in fact there are more people who are prepared to go, but so far we have found considerable difficulty.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, perhaps I can help my noble friend.
§ LORD CHALFONTI should be most grateful.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, may I return to my original Question for one final supplementary question? Is it not true that our total aid programme now amounts to about £200 million? Would the noble Lord not agree that £250,000 is a very small portion of that? Is there any other country among those we already help which has suffered longer or suffered more than South Vietnam, and in the light of that can he really justify such a small contribution?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, the question of overseas aid and programmes for development and other aid is not simply one of suffering. Other factors have to be taken into account, and the question of changing the direction and the emphasis of overseas aid is not one that can be tackled easily and overnight. A great number of factors have to be taken into account. We believe at the moment that the amount we have allotted is relevant to the need and to our resources, but I would add that the Chief Medical Adviser to the Ministry of Overseas Development, Dr. Liston, is coming back from Saigon, I think to-day, and he will be making detailed recommendations to the Minister of Overseas Development.