§ 3.40 p.m.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT)My Lords, I should like, with permission, to repeat a Statement being made in another place on the subject of Spain and Gibraltar. The Statement which is being made by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is as follows:
"We delivered a Note to the Spanish Government yesterday proposing that the talks at official level which we had planned to hold last year should begin in Madrid on the 18th of March. We have suggested that either side should be free to raise whatever subjects it wishes to discuss."
That is the end of the Statement.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for repeating that Answer to us here. I am glad to hear that negotiations will be beginning on March 18, but I should like to ask the noble Lord this question. I notice that the Answer says that the Government have suggested
that either side should be free to raise whatever subjects it wishes to discuss.I do not know how carefully that Answer has been worded, but is the noble Lord aware that Ministers in another place, and I think here, have repeated on various occasions that the sovereignty of Gibraltar cannot be at issue, and I hope that that is a subject which will not arise. As we know, it is a subject in which all Spaniards are interested. I should be grateful if the noble Lord could explain this particular wording to us, and also if he would give us an assurance—repeated assurances have been made, I think, both in this House and in another place—that the interests of the people of Gibraltar themselves must be paramount.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, we have made it perfectly clear to the Spanish Government that we are not going into the talks in order to discuss the transfer of sovereignty. But many of the practical problems of Gibraltar, such as, for example, the division of territorial waters in the Bay, raise questions of sovereignty, and for that reason we should not want such questions to be excluded from the discussions. We think that the talks will have the greatest chance of success if the agenda is kept open, and that is why we have suggested that both sides should be free to raise whatever subjects they wish to discuss. I can repeat the assurance that I and other members of the Government have made before, which is that we are determined, and we remain determined, that the views of the inhabitants as to where their interests lie shall not be ignored.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, will Her Majesty's Government and the noble Lord bear very much in mind, when tackling these discussions next month in Madrid, the words of the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, when he said last Thursday that it was Her Majesty's Government's aim that the Gibraltarians should have maximum control over their internal domestic affairs? Also, will the 335 noble Lord consider raising at these discussions the Spanish restrictions against Gibraltar, because they extend over a wide field, including labour, tourism, trade, social and cultural aspects and political and psychological matters? Also, does the noble Lord not feel that one of the items for discussion should be the question of reducing the restrictions on the frontier and in the air?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, of course we will bear in mind what the noble Lord has said, including what he has said about the restrictions that are visited upon the people of Gibraltar at the moment. In the talks we will, of course, try our best to bring about an improvement in the situation there.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, as there is a possibility that the recent United Nations resolution on Gibraltar may be brought into the talks, could the noble Lord say what Her Majesty's Government's attitude is to that?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I think that my noble friend Lord Caradon has made the attitude of Her Majesty's Government to the United Nations resolution quite clear—and we have made it clear to the Spanish Government—that we do not intend to conduct any talks on the basis of that resolution.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, my noble friend asked that the views of the people of Gibraltar should have paramount consideration. The noble Lord in replying said that they would not be ignored. Are we to take that as being the same thing?
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether there will be a representative of Gibraltar at the talks?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I am afraid that I cannot answer that question off-hand. I will get the information and will let the House have it. So far as the noble Lord's question is concerned, I cannot go further than the wording I used in my Answer. We have used this formula before, and I think it would be unwise if I were to depart from it now. We are prepared to say, and to mean, that the interests and the views of the people of Gibraltar, which were made 336 clear in the recent referendum, shall certainly not be ignored in our talks with the Spaniards.
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I shall naturally study the words of the noble Lord with great interest. But I suggest to him that he has given the impression that never will the British Government consider any form whatever of transfer of sovereignty; and I suggest that whereas it is spoken of as if the interests of the Gibraltarians and a refusal to contemplate this are identical, it may in fact be that a refusal ever to contemplate or discuss any form of transfer of sovereignty is exactly opposite to the interests of the Gibraltarians. I am sorry that that is a very complicated way of setting out a complicated subject, but what I am saying is that I hope the Government will not go in as didactically as the noble Lord sounded to me this afternoon.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords I would agree with the noble Lord that that is a very complicated formulation. But I assure him that we shall not go into this didactically, as he puts it, or with our minds closed. But he will know, and the House will know, that when my noble friend Lord Shepherd was recently in Gibraltar he was able to confirm that the views of the Gibraltarians as reflected in the referendum are absolutely clear and unequivocal. There can be no misunderstanding between us about what they want, and we certainly will have their interests and their views very much in our minds when we go into these talks. But we shall not, as I say, go into them with closed minds.
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, have Her Majesty's Government not given an unequivocal assurance, both to this House and to another place, that in no circumstances will they consider the surrender of Gibraltar and the Gibraltarians to the Spanish Government?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I have said even to-day that we have made it clear to the Spanish Government that we do not go into these talks to discuss the transfer of sovereignty.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, therefore the use of the term "whatever subjects" either side "wishes to discuss" was perhaps a little ill-chosen. Will the noble Lord not agree?
§ LORD CHALFONTNO, my Lords. It was precisely and very carefully chosen for the reason that I said in answer to an earlier supplementary question; that is to say, there are a number of practical questions into which the question of sovereignty comes. But we are not going to discuss the transfer of sovereignty.