§ 3.6 p.m.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what synthetic sweetening agents are permitted to be added to foods and beverages, and what obligation there is to disclose the presence of these substances to the consumer.]
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the artificial sweeteners which may be used in foods and drinks are those forms of saccharin and cyclamates which are named in the Artificial Sweeteners in Food Regulations 1967. As a general rule, where a food contains any artificial sweetener, the label must declare the fact.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, arising out of his reply, may I ask my noble friend whether it is not the case that all these artificial sweeteners have no nutritive value whatsoever? 196 And may I ask also whether, in the case of cyclamates, there is not evidence that they are toxic?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the answer to the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question is that they have no nutritive value, and I am aware of this. In answer to the second part, I know that the noble Lord holds the view that they have a toxic quality, but the very authoritative Committee which sat on these matters is of a different opinion.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend how permission to use these synthetic sweeteners in foodstuffs and drinks can be reconciled with the direction contained in the Food and Drugs Act that the Minister should have regard to the desirability of restricting as far as practicable the use of substances of no nutritional value as foods or as ingredients in foods?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I reconcile that by the fact that the regulations are very selective in these matters. For example, in the case of ice cream, because it is necessary to increase its nutritive value, these particular sweeteners are not allowed. In the case of certain other articles—for example, soft drinks—the amount of artificial sweeteners is severely limited in order to ensure that nutrition from sugar is included in the composition of the article.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, some of us like to take saccharin because it has no nutritional value?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, also aware that cyclamates present a rather different problem from that of saccharin, because it is generally thought—in fact, it is recommended—that there is a safe daily limit of intake? Is the noble Lord not aware that the reason why it is thought that cyclamates should be specified definitely is that it will enable people to judge whether that daily safe limit is being exceeded?
§ LORD BESWICKYes, my Lords, it is the fact that saccharin has a bitter after-taste for some people and that 197 cyclamates have not such a taste, and are therefore more suitable in certain cases. The more cynical, however, may well say that cyclamates are more widely used in some of these articles, because they are cheaper than saccharin.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, has not the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, entirely missed the point of my question? This is a question of the safety of the daily level of intake. Would he look further into this subject and have a word with his right honourable friend on it, because it is a matter which is raising a considerable amount of comment? It is thought that perhaps it would be better to have cyclamates specified definitely rather than simply included under artificial sweeteners.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am sorry; I take the noble Lord's point. If more than a certain quantity of some of these sweeteners is taken it is thought by some that there would be a possibility (I put it no higher than that) of its having certain laxative effects. But I do not think the danger of that is very great. If the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, would like more details, I would gladly send them to him.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether I am right in thinking that the Food and Drug Administration of the United States of America prohibited the use of cyclamates?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the position is, as I understand it, that the question has been raised in the United States by a number of people, including friends of the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch; but at the present time the regulations there permit the use of these artificial sweeteners.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that since the Food Standards Committee made its recommendation about cyclamates more data has been published, indicating that they may be toxic in themselves, or that they break down into other toxic substances?
§ LORD BESWICKYes, my Lords, one body did find that there was a suggestion, that there was a breakdown into other substances. That possibility, although 198 not particularly dangerous, is now being followed up by another body.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, may I ask whether my noble friend was talking about a Committee in the United States of America, and, if so, will he make that clear?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I have been talking about a number of Committees and other bodies. In answer to the question put by my noble friend Lady Summerskill I was talking about regulations in the United States. In answer to the question put to me by Lord Douglas of Barloch I was talking about the examination by a body in this country who came to a certain finding which did not cause any undue alarm; but the possibilities to which they pointed are being followed up by another body.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware—before we get too deeply interested in this subject—that there is some toxic characteristic in practically every food we eat and every beverage we drink?
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLBut there is no reason to add to them.