HL Deb 17 December 1968 vol 298 cc705-8

2.45 p.m.

LORD WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the continuing shortage of science teachers, they will use their influence in the Burnham Committee to persuade that Committee to consider the claims of professional bodies for full recognition of their qualifications; and, in particular, to recognise Graduate Membership and Associateship of the Royal Institute of Chemistry as the equivalent of a good honours degree of a university.]

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, the Burnham Committee have for some time accepted certain professional qualifications for graduate status for salary purposes. But they have decided, as a matter of principle, that the good honours graduate scale should apply only to good honours degrees. The proceedings of the Committee and its panels are confidential, and I cannot therefore reveal what initiatives Her Majesty's Government may take.

LORD WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her helpful reply. Is she aware that while the Burnham Committee do not recognise this qualification as equivalent to a good honours degree, the universities of the country recognise it as equivalent to a good honours degree for the purpose of proceeding to research for the degree of Ph.D.? The Science Research Council recognise it as a qualification for award for research studentships, and I am informed that the Scottish Education Department recognise it as a good honours degree in equivalent. Anyone who has examined knows perfectly well that the standard is as high as for a good honours degree.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords, may I add a supplementary question? Could we have a definition of what is a good honours degree, because I understand that the purpose—

LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)

My Lords, I think it would be helpful if my noble friend were enabled to answer the fairly lengthy observations of my other noble friend.

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, I suppose the short answer might be that I was not aware of the facts which the noble Lord has given to me, but I would remind him that the qualifications of the Royal Institute of Chemistry could not be treated in isolation. If in fact there were to be recognition of professional qualifications for the good honours degree scale in the way that he outlines, it would obviously entail a major change in the Burnham salary arrangements which would raise rather complicated questions of assess-merit of a wide range of non-university qualifications. I am sure the noble Lord will appreciate that the Scottish Education Department of course is a law unto itself, but in relation to the Burnham Committee I think I must further remind him that Her Majesty's Government is a member of the management panel of the Committee and, therefore, must be part of the one voice which speaks on matters of this kind.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords, may I ask a supplemental question, which is really relevant. What exactly is a good honours degree? For the purposes of post-graduate grants a good honours degree is a first or an upper second, but for the purposes of Burnham scale additions I believe any sort of honours degree or a lower second is also admissible.

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, speaking from personal knowledge and subject to correction, I would agree with the noble Baroness that a good honours degree means just what she has said: that it is in fact a first or second. But in certain cases, with certain universities, I believe that a slightly lower honours degree has been accepted; but the general understanding is the first or second.

LORD WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that so far the Burnham Committee have rejected the application of the Royal Institute of Chemistry even to consider this qualification?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, I think we must be careful not to suggest that the Royal Institute has been subjected to any discrimination. The Institute, of course, has at the moment, a recognition of graduate membership for salary purposes. This is merely the question of the good honours degree.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords, I still have not had my definition of a good honours degree, because in some cases for grant purposes, it is a first or upper second; in other cases a lower second is included.

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, I think the noble Baroness is referring to individual cases. I should be happier if we kept to the matter which is under discussion, that is to say, the Burnham Committee for salary purposes. I will let the noble Baroness have in writing the definition accepted by the Burnham Committee for a good honours degree.

VISCOUNT HANWORTH

My Lords, is the Minister aware that for the associateship of many institutions any university degree of any class is considered adequate?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, I must again repeat that we are dealing with the question of teachers' salaries, a matter which is rather outside some of the bodies which we have been discussing. Once again I feel that we are moving slightly outside the ambit of the Question.

LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY

My Lords, does it not look as if the reason that the Burnham Committee will not make exceptions is that they feel that this is too complicated a matter? Is it possible that that is not necessarily a good enough reason, and would the Government make representations in the Committee?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, I am afraid I have nothing to add to my Answer. The Burnham Committee fully consider every question, and as the Swan Report suggested that the Committee should look into the possibility of recruiting more science teachers, they are looking very carefully into this matter.