§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ e Question was as follows:
§ ask Her Majesty's Government which are the Governments who are at present supplying arms to the Union of South Africa; and, if they have not that information, whether they will take the necessary steps to obtain it.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD SHEPHERD)My Lords, the contents of defence contracts entered into between foreign countries are normally confidential. However, if the noble Marquess would refer to a United Nations document of September 9, 1968 (a copy of which is in the Library), he will find some examples there of supplies claimed to be reaching South Africa from various sources.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYBut, my Lords, we have our own representatives in the Union of South Africa. Does the noble Lord really mean to say that they cannot inform the Government? The United Nations at the moment is a sort of diplomatic alibi; everything is unloaded on to the United Nations. I ask: Have the Government got this information, and, if so, will they give it to your Lordships?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am sorry the noble Marquess feels that my Answer is defensive. I put the last part in my Answer merely to give him some help and information. I would refer the noble Marquess to the first part of my Answer, which is that these contracts between foreign countries are nomally confidential, and, therefore, if this information is confidential it is difficult for Her Majesty's Government to obtain it, and certainly to disclose it.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I asked, not whether it is confidential, but whether Her Majesty's Government knew which these countries were. I ask them again: Do they know which countries these are?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, we have had reports of certain countries supplying information, but sine we have no concrete evidence to that effect, I think it would be wrong for me to disclose it as though it were a source of truth.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYBut, my Lords, the noble Lord has already said that it has been disclosed in a resolution of the United Nations. Why can it not be disclosed to the House of Lords?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, if the noble Marquess wishes it, I will read out the report to which I have referred, but it would take a great deal of time. May I suggest to the noble Marquess that he reads this report, which, as I say, is in the Library, and if he then requires further information I will endeavour to give it to him.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, is it not the fact that to give the information in this House to-day would be very embarrassing to the Government, and that is the reason why they have given the Answer they have?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Marquess has been a Minister for many years, and he knows that information that is confidential must remain confidential. As I say, information of an arms contract between one foreign country and another is normally confidential.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, if the noble Lord is unable to give the information to the House of Peers, can he at least assure us that he will get the information through the Secret Service, or through other channels, so that the Government may be aware of their unwisdom, and even futility, in this matter?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, clearly it is not for me in your Lordships' House to say what is available to Her Majesty's Government from secret sources. But if there is that information, clearly I could not disclose it to the House.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that we are pleased with his answers to questions, especially coming from the Rhodesian and South African Lobby?
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that it is quite normal for a Minister to withhold information if he feels that it is not in the public interest to divulge it?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am glad that my noble friend has reminded the House of this fact.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, why is it not in the public interest to divulge it? Is it not a fact that Her Majesty's Government are not supplying arms to the Union of South Africa because of a resolution of the United Nations? Is it not of some interest to us, who are losing a great deal of money therefrom, to find out what countries are violating the resolution of the United Nations?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, no country has violated the resolution of the United Nations. As the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, will perhaps remember, this is not a mandatory resolution. It is a resolution which calls upon countries in the United Nations to adopt something, but they are not required to do it. Her Majesty's Government have thought it right, with other countries, so to do. In regard to the confidential information, this is confidential between two foreign countries if they are supplying arms. If we were aware of it, we should not disclose it.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, could I ask the noble Lord a question similar to the one I asked last Thursday, which he then said he would answer if I put down a Question; namely, whether he can say to what extent French influence and interests are replacing those of Britain in the Simonstown area, and what is the loss to this country arising from the French submarine-building programme for South Africa? Her Majesty's Government must have those figures, because I imagine that the South African Government first approached Her Majesty's Government in regard to the supply of these submarines.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I have not the information for which the noble Lord has asked, and I repeat that if he will put it down as a Starred Question, I will seek to reply to it.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, whatever the position—
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHYREMy Lords, as there is obviously a great deal of interest—
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I cannot possibly answer if two questions are to be asked at the same time.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, whatever the position in regard to other countries, Her Majesty's Government are in this position: that, having imposed a savage squeeze and freeze on the people of this country, they expect the country to follow them in the export drive when they deliberately throw away the chance of exports for the defence of a vital British interest.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, if the noble Lord will perhaps do a little homework in regard to trade statistics, he will see that our exports to South Africa are holding up very well, despite the deflationary programme in South Africa, and also that South African export trade with this country is substantial and is increasing. Therefore, this policy has not affected the export trade of this country to South Africa.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it is not a question of homework? If we exported these necessary arms, the trade figures would be far better.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, as there is obviously a great deal of interest in this Question, would the Minister kindly ask our Representative in South Africa to ask the South African Government whether they will give this information?—because, after all, if the Legislature asks for it it is the duty of the Executive to try to satisfy the Legislature.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the Government are clearly answerable to Parliament, but it is for the Government to decide how best to conduct their relations with a foreign country. I cannot believe that anything would more antagonise the South African Government—which clearly some noble Lords appear to seek—than to ask them for information which is confidential between two countries.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, the noble Lord has been good enough to indicate 173 a deposit in the Library. Could he say whether that information extends to deals with Portugal, since those two countries in all discussions here have been bracketed? Is the information which he has reported also there with regard to Portugal? If not, could he supply that information?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord will see the reports. He will see that these are reports which have been made by various member countries of the United Nations to the United Nations. That is the basis. They are fairly extensive, and I suggest that the noble Lord reads them.
§ LORD BARNBYI thank the noble Lord.