HL Deb 30 April 1968 vol 291 cc1069-80

7.26 p.m.

LORD SILKIN

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Silkin.)

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Restriction on export of ponies.

1. The Diseases of Animals Act 1950 (hereinafter referred to as "the Act of 1950") shall be read and have effect as if:— (1) after subsection (4) of section 37 thereof (which relates to restrictions on the export of horses) there were inserted the following subsection:— (4A) In the case of a pony the conditions to be complied with shall include conditions that in the opinion of the inspector the pony is fit for breeding or riding purposes and properly described in any certificate, licence or other document relating to the export of the pony and that the pony is of not less value than £80, or, in the case of a pony not exceeding 12 hands in height, £50, or such other value as may be prescribed by the Minister for the purpose of this paragraph.

LORD SWANSEA moved, in the proposed new subsection (4A) of the Diseases of Animals Act 1950, after the first "is" to insert "or will be". The noble Lord said: This Amendment is a very simple one. If an inspection of ponies is properly carried out in a meticulous way—I am not saying that it is at present; one of the drawbacks of the present system is that in many cases the inspection is far too cursory—an inspector might say that a yearling filly, for instance, was not fit for breeding or riding purposes, and he would be perfectly right. So this Amendment is designed to cope with that by providing a let-out, so to speak, for the inspector to say that in his opinion a young pony, for instance, would be in due time fit for breeding or riding purposes. One might say that in the case of a yearling pony, a filly or a colt, one could not tell whether that pony would be fit in two or three years' time for breeding or riding purposes, but one can say Exactly the same about the clause as it stands. I hope that your Lordships will find this Amendment acceptable. I think it will help the inspector somewhat in his duties. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 12, after ("is") insert ("or will be").—(Lord Swansea.)

LORD SILKIN

I first saw this Amendment late yesterday evening. Although the Committee stage of this Bill has been on the Order Paper for a number of weeks, all the Amendments on the Paper were put down only yesterday, and, as I say, I saw them in manuscript for the first time at half past six yesterday evening. I have therefore had no time to make any inquiries or have consultations with my friends on the matter; and although this Amendment, and a number of others, sound plausible, I should be grateful if the noble Lord would give me an opportunity of considering them and getting in touch with him before Report stage. I promise him that I will allow a good deal of time to elapse, ample time, between now and the Report stage, and if he will do that I can assure him that his Amendments, except those I am going to accept here and now—there are several of them—will receive the fullest and most careful consideration.

LORD SWANSEA

I must admit that I owe the noble Lord an apology for not having tabled these Amendments sooner, but I can only blame the Easter holidays for that. On the understanding that he will take another look at them and give them due consideration, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD SOMERS moved, in the proposed new subsection (4A) of the Diseases of Animals Act 1950, to leave out "£80" and insert "£100". The noble Lord said: I, too, apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for having put down this Amendment only the day before yesterday. My excuse is the same as that of my noble friend Lord Swansea, that I was much occupied during the Recess period. With your Lordships' permission I should like to consider Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 together because they are both on the same point.

As of course is perfectly obvious, these values were suggested for the purpose of preventing the sale of ponies for slaughter. Presumably nobody in his senses would want to pay prices such as these for ponies for that purpose, but only if they wanted to use them for breeding or riding. Since the Bill was introduced we have had the event of devaluation, and in view of that I thought it would be a good thing if the values were raised to the amounts which I have suggested in my Amendments. I beg to move Amendment No. 2.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 16, leave out ("£80") and insert ("£100").—(Lord Somers.)

LORD SWANSEA

I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, will think hard before he agrees to accept these Amendments. A large part of the bona fide pony trade in this country depends on the medium-priced children's riding pony, the sort of pony which might come either just within or just over the limits that the noble Lord, Lord Somers, has mentioned. There is a quite big trade in ponies within this price bracket, and if the limits in the Bill are raised to the level suggested by my noble friend I cannot help feeling that it would largely destroy the export market in these medium-priced ponies. I think that the prices as they stand in the Bill are sufficient to provide an economic discouragement to the slaughter trade, and I do not see any need to raise them.

LORD LEATHERLAND

As I was one of those people who supported this Bill on Second Reading, I feel inclined to ask my noble friend Lord Silkin to accept the Amendment that is now being put forward. I think when we considered the Bill on Second Reading we were of the opinion that the price limits that have been fixed would be sufficient to ensure that only animals of stud or racing or trotting capacity were exported, and that the cheaper animals were not exported for the purpose of slaughter or for some inhuman kind of use. Since then, as the noble Lord, Lord Somers, has said, we have had devaluation, and I think it is only natural when dealing with imports and exports that we should upgrade the figure, in order that there is the same relationship to the general question of price as applied when we approved the Second Reading. I hope that my noble friend will feel able to accept this Amendment.

LORD SILKIN

I had myself intended to put down an Amendment of this kind, because I felt that since devaluation we were really dealing with the same kind of pony as we had in mind when the Bill was first introduced. It was formerly valued at not less than £80 but would be worth £100 in modern currency. Therefore, I should like to accept both this and the next Amendment.

LORD SOMERS

I beg to move Amendment No. 3.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 17, leave out ("£50") and insert ("£70").—(Lord Somers.)

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 [Rest periods for exported ponies]:

LORD SWANSEA moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "the Isle of Man or the Republic of Ireland", and insert "or the Isle of Man.". The noble Lord said: In the debate on the Second Reading of this Bill I mentioned the point which I am now seeking to amend, which is simply that when a pony is exported from the United Kingdom to the Republic of Ireland it is leaving the jurisdiction of Her Majesty's Courts just as surely as it would be on being exported to the Continent. I am not saying that the conditions of treatment towards exported ponies in the Republic of Ireland are the same as on the Continent. I sincerely hope that they do not exist there. All the same, I do not see why we should treat the Republic of Ireland, that being technically a foreign country, in any way different from any country on the Continent. In that respect this would bring this clause into line with Clause 3. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, leave out line 4 and insert ("or the Isle of Man".).—(Lord Swansea.)

LORD SILKIN

For the reasons I gave in reply to Amendment No. 1, I should like to have time to consider this Amendment. Prima facie I think that the noble Lord is right. I would feel disposed, if I had to give a decision now, to omit the Republic of Ireland; but there is no reason why one should act without proper consideration, and I should be obliged if the noble Lord having made his case, with which I have great sympathy, would now withdraw the Amendment.

LORD SWANSEA

My previous remarks on Amendment No. 1 can be taken to apply to this Amendment, and I beg leave to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD SWANSEA moved to add to the clause: () Subsections (1) and (2) above shall not apply to ponies whose place of origin is within fifty miles of the place of loading. 'Place of origin' for the purposes of this section means the place at which the ponies were offered for sale by the last owner.".

The noble Lord said: This Amendment applies to the rest periods laid down in this clause. It seems to me unnecessary that where a pony is taken from a sale or a stud within a reasonable distance of the port of loading it should then be obliged to have a rest period. It would be unnecessary from the point of view of the pony and inconvenient from the point of view of everyone else. The Amendment would also permit the use of farms or stables of a suitable nature within a reasonable radius of the point of loading, in the case of ports or airports where there are no proper lairage facilities. That applies to most of the ports in this country from which ponies are exported.

This Amendment defines the place of origin of the pony as the place at which the ponies were offered for sale by the last owner. I am not a lawyer; the noble Lord opposite is. I am open to any correction that he may choose to make, but it seems to me that that expression would cover either the place at which the parties are bred, or the home of the owner, or the place where they go into the sale ring. I do not think I need say any more. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 46, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Swansea.)

VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD

I should like to point out that the place of origin should mean the place where the pony was originally bred, or anywhere where it had been living for the past few months. Under this Amendment a pony could have been dragged round from sale to sale. It is not really satisfactory to say that the place of origin is the market where the pony was last sold. One cannot call that a "place of origin". Personally I could not support this Amendment. These ponies are often dragged round from market to market, and any opportunity for them to have a rest period and to be properly fed before being embarked ought not to be thrown away under this Amendment.

LORD LEATHERLAND

On this occasion I do not find myself in harmony with the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard. It is a fact that some farms where ponies are bred are within 50 miles or so of one of the ports from which ponies may be exported. Some professional breeders would prefer to take their ponies direct from their comfortable stables to the ship, rather than allow the ponies to spend the night in lairages that are not so comfortable and so well administered as they might be. I hope that the Committee will allow my noble friend Lord Silkin, who has had this Amendment thrown at him quite suddenly, to give some consideration to it. Although it might be objectionable to some people, it might meet with the approval of some of the pony societies which are interested in this Bill. I hope that the Amendment will be withdrawn to allow my noble friend Lord Silkin to give it mature consideration.

LORD BURTON

I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, on the first part of his Amendment. I agree that there is a difficulty about defining "place of origin". It might have been better to say that it was the last place where it would have been possible for the pony to have a rest for a satisfactory period of time. To put the pony into some strange stable at a port might mean that it would be put somewhere to which it was not accustomed, and this might be more cruel than transporting it to the port. Perhaps the noble Lord will consider further the question of the place of origin. Apart from this, I feel that the Amendment is quite satisfactory. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, may be able to accept it in an amended form.

EARL FORTESCUE

I understand that some of the ports handling ponies have no lairage at all. It is important to see that ports are properly fixed up with lairage before we begin to talk about the distance from the point of origin. I agree that in many cases lairages would not be required for ponies coming from good homes in the immediate neighbourhood; but so long as proper lairage accommodation is not provided at the port the trade in ponies through those ports should be stopped.

LORD SILKIN

Every noble Lord who has spoken has spoken from knowledge and experience. There is a general measure of agreement that some kind of rest period is necessary in some cases, though not in all. The Bill as it stands would require a rest period for every pony shipped abroad. I think that it will need amendment. On the other hand, I find some difficulty in accepting the Amendment in its present form. I would ask the noble Lord to withdraw it on the same understanding as was reached on the previous Amendment.

LORD SWANSEA

I should like to thank noble Lords on both sides of the Committee for their opinions on this Amendment. My definition of "place of origin" was simply a layman's "cock-shy" at a definition. I am not in the least surprised that it has been "shot down". I will have another go at defining it. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 [Further restrictions on export of certain ponies]:

LORD SWANSEA

Amendment No. 6 seeks simply to bring Clause 3 into line with Clause 2 in the method of shipping ponies. Instead of just a reference to shipping from a port, it includes a reference to shipping by air. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 4, leave out ("in any vessel from any port") and insert ("by sea or by air from any place").—(Lord Swansea.)

LORD SILKIN

I am glad that it will not be necessary for the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, to go home empty-handed. I am glad to accept this Amendment, and the next one.

LORD SWANSEA

I beg to move Amendment No. 7.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 5, leave out ("port") and insert ("place").—(Lord Swansea.)

LORD SWANSEA

Amendment No. 8 relates to pony mares which could be said to be too old for breeding or riding. There would be no real point in exporting such a pony. I am open to argument about the actual age. I have suggested a figure of twelve years old as a sighting shot, so to speak, but I am willing to listen to any argument for any other age. I feel that there is a case for prohibiting the export of aged pony mares which would inevitably have only one fate in store for them on reaching the other side. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 8, at end insert ("or which in the opinion of the inspector is more than twelve years old").—(Lord Swansea.)

VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD

I should like to support this excellent Amendment.

LORD LEATHERLAND

There may be something in this Amendment, but it has been sprung rather suddenly on my noble friend Lord Silkin. He should be given an opportunity to consider it and to give it some mature consideration before saying a definite "Yes" or "No" to the Amendment in its present form. If the noble Lord could withdraw it and give my noble friend an opportunity to look at it, with all its implications, that might be the best way out of the problem.

EARL FORTESCUE

It is extremely dangerous to try to fix an age limit, since some ponies are quite useless by the time they are eight years old. It depends on their constitution and the amount of work which they have had to do. I am certain that there are records of ponies having lived to the age of 30. Therefore, it is extremely dangerous to try to draw the line. The best horse I ever had, and the only horse on which I ever jumped a railway gate, was 19 years old at the time.

LORD SILKIN

The purpose of exporting ponies is, one hopes, for riding, breeding or exhibition. It may be that a horse over 12 years old would not be suitable for breeding; I do not know and I should like further advice. I should have thought that it might be suitable for riding for a number of years, at any rate in regard to special types of horses. The difficulty that has been expressed to me is: how is the veterinary surgeon going to assess the age of a pony as being more or less than 12 years? I should like further advice on that point, so I hope the noble Lord will be prepared to give me time to get that advice.

LORD SOMERS

I wonder whether I may enlighten the noble Lord as to an assessment of age. It is quite simple to do this by its teeth.

VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD

No, you cannot do that over the age of seven years. It is impossible.

LORD SWANSEA

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for his remarks. In relation to his last remark about assessing the age, may I say that if a pony is accompanied by an export certificate as defined in this Bill, such an export certificate should give the age of the pony. In the case of the Welsh Pony and Cob Society, registration certificates and, I think, export certificates give the date of birth of the pony. In any case, I sympathise with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in that he would like more time to study this Amendment; and in those circumstances I beg leave to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

7.51 p.m.

LORD SWANSEA

This question of the age at which foals can be exported is a very difficult one and, quite rightly, people have differing views about it. In the debate on the Second Reading I said I thought that it would be safe to allow foals at foot to be exported at the age of four months and that weaned foals could be exported at the age of six months. I have thought about this a good deal since then and I have consulted with other people, and this Amendment would have the effect of prohibiting altogether the export of weaned foals in the year of their birth. So the only foals which could be exported—and I am now dealing with Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 —would be those of four months and over at foot; in other words, travelling with their dams. I am aware that there are many different opinions on this subject, and I do not intend to press this Amendment. If the noble Lord opposite would like more time to consider it and to consult over it, I am quite wilting to fall in with his wishes.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 9, after ("foal") insert ("in the year of its birth except a foal travelling with its dam and").—(Lord Swansea.)

LORD BURTON

I should like t o support my noble friend on this Amendment. I think I am right in saying that a year of a horse's life is equivalent to seven years of a human life. Consequently, if the pony is only a year old it is like a child of only seven years. I know that my wife objects to any of our sons going off to school even at the age of eight, so that to send them off at only three or four years old would be very severe. A yearling is at quite a reasonable age for it to be allowed to go.

LORD LEATHERLAND

This is an Amendment which might need careful consideration. There have been many recorded cases of foals, sometimes travelling with their dams and sometimes travelling in isolation, who have been very cruelly treated both on the ships crossing the Channel and in the motor lorries after they have landed at Zeebrugge or some other port on the Continent. It would be unfair to ask my noble friend Lord Silkin to accept or reject this Amendment on the spur of the moment, especially as so little notice has been given. So I hope he will be given an opportunity of considering it in a more mature manner, and of coming to a decision at the next stage of the Bill.

EARL FORTESCUE

A large number of thoughts have been left with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and no doubt when this Bill comes up again we shall get his mature reflections and fresh proposals. But I ask that we also have a lot of fresh facts. I expect we have all had from the various societies a mass of literature full of adjectives but with practically no facts. The sort of thing I should like to know is the cost of transport by air or sea, the price given by the foreigner, and the price of the meat sold—I know it is higher on the Continent than it is here—because I am not convinced that a thoroughly bad, small pony can pay for the shipment. I should not have thought that the amount of meat to be got off him at the other end would anything like justify the cost of shipment, let alone give the sort of prices which my noble friend Lord Somers mentioned just now. If we could have more facts and figures, rather than the spate of epithets which we have had from the various societies, it would help a lot.

LORD SILKIN

Everybody seems to be agreed that this is an Amendment which needs further consideration. I. in my ignorance, should like to know the meaning of the term "in the year of its birth". I do not know whether it is a term of art understood in the profession, or what it is. I have been told that a pony born on December 31 becomes one year old on January 1. I do not know whether or not that is correct. One has to be a little careful in the use of phrases like "in the year of its birth", so I should be grateful for more time to consider this.

LORD SWANSEA

Perhaps I can enlighten the noble Lord on his last point. It is true that in the thoroughbred world, where foals are liable to be born at any time of the year and the mares are generally kept in, a foal born on December 31 can become a yearling the next day. But in the case of the native pony breeds, which nearly all live out of doors all the year round, most of the foals are born in the spring—say, from March to May—a great many are born during June, and some are born during July and August. So the phrase "in the year of its birth" in this Amendment refers, of course, to the calendar year. This Bill applies only to ponies; it does not apply to thoroughbreds of any other breeds. So under the living conditions applicable to ponies, especially our native breeds, I think this is a fair enough definition. In any case, I know that the noble Lord opposite would like an opportunity to consider this point further, so I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD SWANSEA

This Amendment takes care of a point which was mentioned by a number of speakers on Second Reading. I gather that there was an error in the drafting of Clause 3(1)(c), and that it was never the intention that the secretary of a breed society or anyone appointed by him should have to certify that a pony was "fit and suitable for export". The intention is, and always has been, I gather, that the secretary should simply have to certify that the pony is pure-bred and registered in the books of his society. That is the effect of this Amendment, and I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 14, leave out ("fit and suitable for export") and insert ("registered with that society").—(Lord Swansea.)

LORD LEATHERLAND

I hope that my noble friend will find it possible to accept this Amendment. As the text of the Bill now stands, it is rather difficult to expect the secretary of any of these pony societies to go round and inspect every pony before he gives his certificate. I should have thought that the registration of the pony in the stud book of that particular society would have been conclusive evidence of the fact that this was a pony of the kind to which we want of refer. I hope that my noble friend will be able to accept it.

LORD SILKIN

I am very happy to accept this Amendment and to finish the Committee proceedings on a harmonious note.

LORD SWANSEA

I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord for more than one reason.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

House resumed: Bill reported to the House, with Amendments.