HL Deb 09 April 1968 vol 291 cc158-61

2.39 p.m.

LORD ELTON

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the unemployment figures, the alleged concealed redundancy in industry and the excessive pressure on housing, schools and other social services, they will suspend the issue of work vouchers to immigrants for an experimental period of twelve months.]

THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (LORD SHACKLETON)

No, my Lords.

LORD ELTON

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that exceptionally lucid reply, may I ask him whether, although of course there would have to be exceptions to an experiment of this kind—and exceptions not based on colour—nevertheless, since the basic problem of immigration is not colour but numbers, it would not somewhat ease our difficulties if the future flow of dependants were reduced? Will he also bear in mind that it would undoubtedly be welcomed warmly by a large majority of the electorate?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I do not really think we can debate again the policy on immigration. If the noble Lord is satisfied that my reply is lucid, perhaps he will be content with that. Of course, many of the dependants who are coming in, and causing some of the pressure on the social services, are coming in because their husbands or parents are already here; and any reduction in the number of vouchers would not affect the position.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether his reply means that Her Majesty's Government are not going to take any steps at all to relieve the pressure in future?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, the noble Lord opposite did not find my Answer lucid. The Question was whether the Government will: suspend the issue of work vouchers to immigrants for an experimental period of twelve months", and the Answer was, No, the Government would not.

LORD THORNEYCROFT

My Lords, arising out of that reply may I ask the noble Lord this further question? Of course, when a work voucher is issued it effectively gives a right to the man to whom it is issued to stay in this country with his dependants after him. Have the Government given consideration, on receipt of such an application, to inquiring how many applicants the immigrant proposes to bring in, and allowing that to be a factor in deciding whether the voucher be issued or not; and, if not, why not?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, we cannot raise again now the whole question of policy behind the admission of immigrants, but obviously all relevant considerations are taken into account. It is expected that many of those who come to this country—and I take it that this relates to work vouchers as applied to Commonwealth immigrants—will bring their families in at the time or at a later date; and the numbers have been fixed with that factor in mind.

BARONESS GAITSKELL

My Lords, would not the noble Lord the Leader of the House agree that the assumption underlying the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Elton, is false—the implication that immigrants take the jobs of British workers? This is not true. Surely, it is not true. They do the jobs that British workers either are reluctant or do not wish to do.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I am trying to keep the Question as narrow as I can. I agree that the answer was implied in the noble Lord's Question. It is, of course, a fact that the particular arrangements for work vouchers for Commonwealth immigrants—and this does not apply to Kenya immigrants, where different criteria apply—meet their particular circumstances of need. But in relation to ordinary work vouchers, they come under a most carefully controlled scheme; indeed, in many cases employers have waited for some months for them to arrive. Presumably, therefore, they have not been able to fill the jobs in other ways.

BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY

My Lords, arising from the last answer given by the Minister, may we know whether the special needs of the Kenyan Indians are being considered before those of other immigrants?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I think that is really a completely different question.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, is the noble Lord the Leader of the House in a position to give a denial to published reports that in certain areas whence immigrants can come to this country more than one wife is permitted, which can inconveniently increase the number of applicants for entry here?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, that is an interesting speculation. Perhaps I might just tell the noble Baroness, Lady Emmet, that in fact different criteria do apply in regard to East African immigrants.

LORD ELTON

My Lords, does the noble Lord realise that the implication behind my original Question is not that suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, of immigrants taking the jobs of native workers? Does the noble Lord not realise that it is in fact the steady build-up of pressure on all our social services and the problems arising from excessive numbers due to a steady flow of dependants?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, the noble Lord in fact refers in his Question to the unemployment figures and the alleged concealed redundancy.

BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that if the experiment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, were put into effect the hospitals would practically not be able to continue? We very much welcome Lord Shackleton's reply.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, is the noble Lord in a position to answer ray question, or would he prefer me to put down a separate Question?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, if the noble Lord will put it down on another occasion I shall welcome it.