§ 3.27 p.m.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government—
- (a) how many applications have been received by the Ministry of Agriculture and the Department of Agriculture for Scotland for entry into the Brucellosis Eradication Scheme;
- (b) how many herds are now supervised and how many accredited; and
- (c) what financial provision is being made for the coming year.]
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, up to October 16, 1967, 6,393 applications for membership of the Brucellosis 1766 (Accredited Herds) Scheme had been received by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and 821 by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland. Though it normally takes from eight to ten months before herds can complete qualifying tests and become "supervised", 76 herds are already "supervised" and six are already "accredited". This is due to extensive tests carried out privately before the Scheme started. Financial provisions for the coming year are being considered in the light of the past six months' experience.
LORD ROWALLANMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his very courteous reply, I should like to ask him this question. In view of the fact that no grant or assistance is available until the herd has reached the "supervised" state, does the Minister feel that this is a very satisfactory result, showing enthusiasm of producers for the Scheme as a whole?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am not quite certain to which grant the noble Lord is referring, but if he is thinking in terms of a financial incentive to a farmer to have his herd accredited, of course once a herd is accredited then it assumes a higher value, and there is that incentive to a farmer to have his herd become accredited. If the noble Lord is thinking in terms of grant or compensation for animals slaughtered, which is not payable until a herd is supervised, I would say that the argument has been discussed, but I think he will agree that it would be quite impossible to pay grants for compensation before that stage.
LORD ROWALLANMy Lords, that, I am afraid, was not the question I asked. It was this: In view of the fact that no grants are available until after a herd is "supervised", is the Minister satisfied with the progress of the Scheme as at present?
§ LORD BESWICKThe answer to that is, Yes, my Lords. Over 7,000 applications have been received, and this is most satisfactory.
§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORDMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is a good deal of anxiety among the farming world that the incentives are not sufficient to bring about the very 1767 much desired progress in the Scheme? Will he ask his right honourable friend whether he will look again at the structure of the Scheme and consider whether the incentive should not be increased in order to get a faster recruitment to bring our herds generally into the Scheme, which is so desirable?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I will certainly bring to the attention of my right honourable friend the points which have been made, but 100 applications a week are coming in, which would seem to indicate that there is a considerable incentive.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he recalls that about 18 months ago I initiated a debate on this subject on an Unstarred Question, and in consequence I was given an assurance that effective measures would be taken. Nevertheless, may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that there are still 25 per cent. to 35 per cent. of the herds in this country infected? Furthermore, is he aware that the incidence of brucellosis or undulant fever is so high among veterinary surgeons, milkers, herdsmen and agricultural labourers, that pressure is being applied to classify this as an industrial disease. Is he further aware that if this is done these people will be entitled to compensation, and the cost to the country will be infinitely higher than the sum for which the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is being asked now, in order to make the Scheme effective?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am not quite sure that my noble friend is right about the percentage of herds which are affected. The figure I have been given is 14 per cent. But I agree that it is too high. The point of difference is how best we can tackle this problem. It seems to me to be some indication that there is a good response to this scheme in view of the number of applications for membership which are coming forward.
LORD ROWALLANMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the whole scheme is in danger of being bogged down, owing to restrictions of various kinds, and that there is a strong feeling among producers that the Ministry are deliberately putting obstacles in the way 1768 in order to keep the cost within the £100,000 appropriation for this year?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I know that the noble Lord has these fears. I understand that he has expressed them most effectively at the Ministry, and I am sure it has been useful for the Ministry to have the benefit of his practical experience. But I can still only say that progress is being made in registration, and in another few months there should be a considerable step forward when the tests are completed of the number of herds accredited.
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Question!
LORD ROWALLANMy Lords, I should like to know whether the Animal Health Service is considered to be adequate for carrying out the tests. A great many people, having applied some months ago, have still made no progress whatsoever and have still not even been visited by the Animal Health Service practitioners. A great many have already withdrawn their names from the list because of the frustration which they feel at being given strict rules and regulations without any possibility of carrying them out.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am sorry to hear from the noble Lord that there is frustration leading to withdrawal from the scheme, and I hope that he will use his influence to see that they are not non-co-operative in this way. But if the number is as large as 7,000, and there are 100 new applications a week, clearly there must be some little delay.
§ BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOODMy Lords, does not the noble Lord think it is encouraging that there should be this number, and would it not be within the competence of the Ministry to have a sufficient number of people to deal with the clearing of herds, which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, has already said, would undoubtedly save money in the long run?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I have no doubt it would be possible to have additional staff at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, but I see that there is strong criticism this week 1769 in some journals at the number of people already employed there.
LORD ROWALLANMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the co-operation of the producers and the veterinary services and the Ministry is looked upon as an essential, and is he aware that this co-operation seems to have gone very far amiss? The Royal Association of British Dairy Farmers convened a meeting of presidents and secretaries of breed societies and show societies, and asked the Minister to send a representative to explain the restrictions. Unfortunately the Minister was not able—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Speech!
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD SHACKLETON)My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? It is customary for whoever is acting—is the noble Lord giving way?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I am sorry to intervene on matters of such importance, but I believe your Lordships are inclined to think that supplementary questions should not be too lengthy, and it is my duty, or the duty of any of your Lordships, to intervene. I congratulate the noble Lord, because he has managed to get in three or four quite effective little speeches.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, perhaps I might just say that if the noble Lord has any details of the restrictions which he says are being placed, I shall be glad to have them looked into.