§ 3.13 p.m.
§ LORD CRAWSHAWMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, since foreign meat is probably one of the main sources of infection of foot-and-mouth disease, they would be prepared to impose more stringent restrictions upon its import.]
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, evidence as to the origin of foot-and-mouth disease can only be circumstantial, but the Ministry of Agriculture's veterinary staff have associated about 49 per cent. of the primary outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease since 1938 either with swill containing some meat of imported origin, or with contact with imported meat and bones. In a further 6 per cent. origins are obscure, but there has been some possible contact with swill. Her Majesty's Government are considering whether the existing safeguards on imports of meat are adequate.
§ LORD CRAWSHAWMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. I should like to ask him whether he is aware that we shall never conquer this dreaded disease without far more careful and stringent restrictions on the import of foreign meat, and also whether he is aware that such careful restrictions have proved successful in countries such as the United States.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, when I say that Her Majesty's Government are considering the existing safeguards, I assure the noble Lord that this is exactly what I mean. They are considering them very carefully and I anticipate that a statement on this will be made in the very near future.
§ LORD ROYLEMy Lords, I wonder if my noble friend can say whether the Pirbright research establishment has any idea about the theory which has been around in the trade for many years, that foot-and-mouth disease cannot travel in the meat, in the flesh, but that it certainly can travel in the bone. Does my noble friend know anything about this, so far as the Pirbright establishment's activities are concerned?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I know nothing about any particular statement or any particular finding of the Pirbright establishment, except, of course, that my original Answer was composed with the full knowledge and consent, and based largely on the work, of the Pirbright establishment.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether any of the present outbreaks have been traced to swill, or whether any of the causes of the spread of the infection have been traced and identified?
§ LORD BESWICKNo, my Lords. Of course, one of the terrible factors of the present situation is that there is no conclusive proof as to the origin of the disease or as to how it is being spread.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, the noble Lord referred a little time ago to "circumstantial evidence"? Is there any circumstantial evidence which indicates that the origin is due to swill?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I referred to circumstantial evidence in cases 230 which have been studied very carefully, and after they have been cleared up. In the present situation it is impossible at the moment to say with any certainty what was the cause of the outbreak.
§ LORD OAKSHOTTMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that, particularly among the farming community, there is a good deal of confusion about the pros and cons of a vaccination policy? Would he consider the advisability of the Government's making a statement in the near future, setting out such knowledge as is available to us and to them, in regard to the effectiveness, the cost, the availability, the risks of passing the disease through a carrier after inoculation, the possible effect on the export market, and so on? Does the noble Lord not agree that if we could have a statement like that, which would receive very wide publicity among the farming community, it might help to clear up some of the confusion? It might help, also, if the Government would share their knowledge with the public.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I understand the point which the noble Lord makes, and I think it is an extremely good one. Indeed, it is very similar to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, earlier in the week, and I made representations to the Minister that something of this sort should be done. As a matter of fact, as many noble Lords will know, a broadcast was made last night, both on radio and on television, in which the Minister attempted to deal precisely with the picture to which the noble Lord refers. I have a copy of the transcript here, and I should be glad to show it to the noble Lord. If it is thought that some further statement of a more permanent character should be made, then that is a matter for consideration. But, of course, one of the difficulties here is that the position is changing from day to day.
§ LORD OAKSHOTTMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord very much for what I think is a very encouraging answer. Is he aware that my latest information tells me that there is a football team in South Wales which, the day after tomorrow, along with a great many supporters, is going North to play a game in Chester? In view of the cancellation of a number of gatherings of this kind 231 which has been thought necessary in the last week or so, does he think it wise that this fixture should take place?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the noble Lord was kind enough to let me know about this football match, and I have been endeavouring to make some inquiries about it. As the noble Lord will know, and as was made clear in the broadcast to which I referred, many gatherings have been cancelled, but up to the present time the Minister does not think he can ask that football matches should be cancelled. But what he has asked, and what he emphasised last night, is that farmers and others who have contact with livestock should keep away from large gatherings at the present time; and, of course, this advice would apply with special force to that football match.
THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, have not the Government considered whether there should be a proper inquiry, perhaps by a Royal Commission, into this whole matter—its origin, the causes, the control and the circumstances in which it has been spread?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, of course there must be an inquiry, but again, as I said earlier in the week, the nature of the inquiry which will follow this outbreak has not yet been decided.
§ LORD BALERNOMy Lords, has the noble Lord read the article in The Times to-day which quotes Dr. Brooksby, the Chief Virologist at Pirbright, and which sets out in considerable detail and in very understandable language the type of the present virus, and discusses the pros and cons of vaccination?
§ LORD BESWICKI am much obliged to the noble Lord for calling attention to this article, and I hope that it will gain a wider readership as a result of his supplementary question.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, may I press the question put by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk? This is not a question of making an inquiry into this particular outbreak. These outbreaks take place periodically, and we know so little about their origins or how to deal with them. Is it not time that we had a full-scale inquiry, possibly by a Royal Commission, to investigate the whole subject?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, there have been full-scale inquiries into these outbreaks. The most recent one was the Gowers Committee, which reported in, I think, the 'fifties, although I forget the actual date. What I said to the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, was that there is an inquiry after each outbreak. After this very serious outbreak there must clearly be a specially searching inquiry, but the nature of that inquiry, whether it be by Royal Commission or in some other form, has not as yet been decided. It will be decided presumably after the outbreak has been contained.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, would the noble Lord bear in mind that it is very desirable that there should be a Royal Commission, and that this inquiry should be held in public, so that people throughout the country will have an opportunity of considering and reading about the evidence given and the conclusions? I take it from the noble Lord's answer that that step is not excluded.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I gladly give the answer that such a proposal will not be excluded from consideration.
§ LORD MAELORMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that only this week, within a few miles of Oswestry where this outbreak commenced, a shooting party was arranged? Should not the person responsible be prosecuted under some Act of Parliament or other and put in gaol until the spread of this disease has ceased?
§ LORD BESWICKI am sorry, my Lords, but I was not aware of the shooting party and I cannot comment upon it.
§ LORD OAKSHOTTMy Lords, can the noble Lord say—
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD SHACKLETON)My Lords, I wonder whether I might intervene at this point. As I understand it, this is a Question on the import of foreign meat. My noble friend has, I think, done extremely well in answering. It may be that the noble Lord's supplementary question relates to the original Question. If not, perhaps we might bring this discussion to an end.
§ LORD OAKSHOTTMy Lords, I was going to ask the noble Lord whether he has any confirmation of the rumour that there is an outbreak in Cornwall.
§ LORD BESWICKNo, my Lords, I have no information on that.
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, supplementary to the Question of my noble friend Lord Crawshaw, may I ask whether it is possible to carry out immediately random tests on samples of imported meat, or is this in fact already done?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, there is a most close and searching examination of imported meat, and it is supposed to be certified before it leaves its country of origin.