§ 2.59 p.m.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask Her Majesty's Government the question of which I have given Private Notice: Whether, in view of the continuous spread of foot-and-mouth disease, they will make a Statement.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the epidemic continues to be extremely serious and the loss of livestock is heavy. The number of outbreaks up to mid-day- 8 to-day is 1,204. The number of animals slaughtered is 104,907 cattle, 44,339 sheep and 61,740 pigs. My right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture has never minimised the seriousness of this epidemic, both to the individual farmer and to the nation. Within the main area of infection in Cheshire, Shropshire, Flint-shire and Denbighshire there continue to be many new outbreaks, and recently a number of outbreaks have occurred in Worcestershire. But the efforts of all those fighting the disease have so far prevented any large spread of the disease outside this area.
The controlled area has now been extended to cover Scotland, as well as England and Wales. My right honourable friend has visited the disease control centres at Oswestry, Chester and Crewe, in order to assure himself that everything possible is being done to end this epidemic and to ensure that there is full administrative backing for the work of the veterinary staff.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that on this side of the House and in the country at large there is a wide measure of disquiet at what appears to be a lack of leadership from the Minister concerned? We should like to see more definite measures taken, such as the formation of a committee to look into the spread of this virus, and to get the highest-powered advice as to what can be done about it. But on the immediate front, why cannot the Pennine roads be blocked? Why cannot the National Farmers' Union, who have begged for this to be done, have their wishes granted? Troops could be asked to help, and the National Farmers' Union would provide men. The use of straw and disinfectant and things like that is a very definite measure for preventing the spread. Could this not also be done on some of the roads from the West leading into Scotland?
Secondly, is it not possible to stop horses coming from infected areas from going to race meetings? Thirdly, the National Farmers' Union and most people in the country are, I think, simply amazed that as yet the Smithfield Show is apparently to be allowed to take place. Lastly—and this is something 9 which we have been talking about for some time—is it not now time that the importation of frozen carcases from the Argentine was stopped?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the noble Lord asked a catalogue of questions. I can understand the disquiet and, of course, it is shared by everyone, but to suggest that there is any lack of leadership is to import another element into the disquiet. If one is considering how one can withstand or stop the spread of a virus, wind carried, one realises that there is no gimmick that any Minister of Agriculture can think up, and it is going to require a lot of co-operation, a lot of hard work, a good deal of patience and not the kind of criticism that was levelled at my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture yesterday.
So far as the appointment of a committee is concerned, I should have thought that if my right honourable friend had announced that he had appointed a committee to stop the spread of this virus, that would have been the one thing which would have stimulated this kind of criticism from the Benches opposite. There is virtually a standing committee now in the Ministry and, of course, out in the field directing operations, although it has not been dignified by the name of a "committee".
So far as road blocks are concerned, the fact of the matter is that although the initiative of the local farmers in spreading the straw mats is to be applauded—and, clearly, it can make a contribution—in the opinion of those best able to judge this is not the answer. There is not complete protection through these straw mats, and at the present time the veterinary officers are directing their energies to those absolutely essential fields of effort and have left the other so far to the most notable initiative of the local farmers.
So far as race meetings are concerned, I understand the feeling of the noble Lord opposite, and I believe my right honourable friend will be making an appeal later to-day to the stewards of the National Hunt Committee, asking that all race meetings should be cancelled. As regards the Smithfield Show, the fact is that there will be no animals at the Show. There will be only machinery.
10 I am surprised at what the noble Lord said about the criticism from the N.F.U., because the fact is that the President of the National Farmers' Union has agreed with my right honourable friend to make a joint appeal to farmers not to go to Smithfield. The object of the Show, of course, will now be simply to sell a most valuable export—namely, farm machinery—to foreign buyers, who will be welcome.
The noble Lord asked one other question about foreign meat. There is no evidence at all that the importation of foreign meat is now responsible for the spread of the disease, whatever may have been its contribution in the initial stages—and that, of course, is a matter which has not as yet been proven. There is no evidence that the spread is being encouraged by the importation of this meat, but the possibility of banning imports is being considered. But, as the noble Lord and others will recognise, there are a good many factors which have to be considered in this matter.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, the noble Lord has said that his right honourable friend is going to make a Statement about racing. I do not know whether the noble Lord has been informed, as I have just now been, that the Statement has already been made on the tape.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the noble Lord himself told me as we walked into the Chamber together. But if the Statement has been made, it has been made since I had a discussion about an hour and a half ago.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I have just one small point. The noble Lord gave me a very full answer, but I still remain a little unconvinced why on the few roads over the Pennines there cannot be more obstacles put in the way of easy traffic, while there is so much uncertainty—and uncertainty still does reign. There are only about four or five roads which need to be dealt with like this.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I know that there are certain parts of the country—and the South-West is a case in point—where the blocking of a few roads virtually isolates a very large area. The possibility of doing this in the Pennines is certainly one which I will bring to the 11 closer attention of my right honourable friend. But, as I say, it is a question here of first things first.
§ LORD OAKSHOTTMy Lords, the noble Lord is aware, I know, from our exchanges in the House two weeks ago, of the extent of the calamity which has hit us in Cheshire. Can he tell the House, by any chance, the percentage of cattle slaughtered in Cheshire, in Shropshire and in the other counties which have suffered so badly, in relation to the total cattle population of those counties?
§ LORD BESWICKYes, my Lords. I have been making some inquiries about this matter, and I understand that 12 per cent. have been infected in the two counties. In the infected area as a whole, the number slaughtered to date is 160,000, out of a total of 4 million animals.
§ LORD KILMANYMy Lords, following the point that was dealt with about defending certain areas, is it not the fact that the Border between Scotland and England offers itself as an obvious point to attempt to check the spread of this disease? Also, may I ask the noble Lord what steps, apart from the steps already taken rather unsuccessfully to prevent the spread in England, are being taken to prevent this disease from sweeping into Scotland?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I understand that the Border has virtually been sealed off, so far as traffic is concerned, and that such real traffic as does go through is disinfected. But since there was criticism a little earlier about the efforts which have been made, I call the attention of noble Lords to the experience of one particular farmer who was giving his case on the radio the other day. He had had his animals under cover in the barn all the time. He himself had been the only person to feed them. They had been isolated from every other activity on the farm, quite apart from the district outside, and yet they had contracted this disease. We are here faced with a disease which is particularly dangerous, and I do not think we should underestimate the problem with which the Ministry are at present faced. Nor should we underestimate the efforts which have been made by the farming community as a whole.
LORD HENLEYMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the real difficulty here is that we have very little evidence indeed as yet; that the Ministry of Agriculture are carrying out the right policy; that they and the vets concerned are carrying it out to the best of their ability; and that that is as far as one can go at the moment, except that one hopes that more money will be available for research, which really is the key to this?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am absolutely sure that the spirit which the noble Lord shows is the one which we should all show at the present time.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHWould the noble Lord say whether the Ministry have considered vaccinating herds on farms adjacent to the infected areas?
§ LORD BESWICKThis is a possibility which has been put forward by a number of people, and of course it appears to have certain attractions. But there are also considerable difficulties here, as the noble Earl must know. Vaccination gives no protection to young calves, and very little protection to pigs. The cost of vaccinating 30 million sheep, which is the sheep population of this country, would clearly be enormous.
§ LORD BESWICKMoreover, probably the overwhelming argument against it—the argument which has been carried up to the present time—is that a vaccinated animal, although not itself suffering from the disease, can be a carrier; and once you decide to vaccinate, you are taking a decision which will make it almost certain that the disease will become endemic in the country.
§ LORD MACANDREWMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he could confirm that the week before last a horse was sent from Cheshire, from an infected area, to run at Ascot, the trainer having got leave through the proper channels?
§ LORD BESWICKNo, my Lords, I cannot confirm this, but I will make inquiries.
§ LORD MACANDREWI will supply the noble Lord with the name of the trainer if he would like it.
§ LORD OAKSHOTTMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord two short questions? First, with regard to the compensation that is being paid to farmers—which, after all, is intended, I suppose, for the replacement of their herds when they are allowed to have animals on their farms again—can he say whether there is any element in this which would carry income tax; that is, whether a part of this compensation might be assessable to income tax? Secondly, in regard to an earlier question about a committee, does he not think that it might be a good thing at this stage to re-establish something like the old Gowers Committee to take a long-term view of this and to start learning the lessons from the present outbreak, which may be there already for us to profit from—and to do this now?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, so far as the tax position is concerned, I am no taxation expert, nor am I an accountant, but the difference between the book value of the animals slaughtered and the compensation actually paid must clearly be liable to taxation, although they would enter into the year's results and it would be the out-turn at the end of the year which would decide the tax liability. But I can understand the feeling of the noble Lord in this matter. I should have thought that the possibility of paying the compensation in stages ought not to be ruled out if that assisted the farmers and that this would be a matter for discussion. It is clearly not a matter on which I can make any decision at the present time. As to the second question which the noble Lord asked—
§ LORD OAKSHOTTThat was as to the possibility of re-establishing something like the Gowers Committee at once.
§ LORD BESWICKAt the end of any outbreak there is always an inquiry, and at the end of this outbreak (which is the most serious that we have had this century, and I believe now of all time), clearly there must be a most basic and searching investigation. The form that this investigation will take, either by the establishment of some special committee or in some other way, is a matter still to be decided.
THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, may I ask whether I correctly understood the noble Lord to say that there is an 14 effective inoculation in the case of grown cattle, but that as a matter of policy it is not being made available to farmers who want it?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, probably the noble Earl will read that what I said was that there is a vaccination for cattle, but there is not an effective vaccination for pigs, nor for young calves. I further made the point that although it would be possible to vaccinate cattle for one year—and it would have to be an annual vaccination—the danger here is that a vaccinated animal can be a carrier of the disease.
§ LORD BALERNOMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there are at least nine different forms of the virus, and that the use of a vaccine for one of those forms does not prevent it from mutating into a tenth, eleventh or twelfth form of it?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, this is another factor. The present virus appears to be what is known as the 01, the most virulent that we know.
§ LORD LOVATThe noble Lord mentioned National Hunt Racing. May I ask what views he holds about the Newmarket Sales?
§ LORD BESWICKNo, my Lords; I hold no views at the present time.