HL Deb 28 November 1967 vol 287 cc85-8

6.55 p.m.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

My Lords, may I intervene at this stage, if I am in order? I wish to register a very strong protest about the hour at which the discussion on this Bill was to have commenced. I feel that it is treating with contempt those Members of the House who are interested in this subject. My noble friends on the Front Bench and other noble Lords in this House will remember that when we had a similar Bill before us some time ago, I think practically every time it was discussed it came on late in the evening and we had to come night after night. The Government said then, and say now, that they attach considerable importance to this Bill. My Lords, I think this is a very poor way of showing it.

A fortnight ago, bearing this in mind, I raised this matter with the Government Chief Whip. I appreciate that this is a selfish interest, but we are all selfish about Bills in which we are interested. I said I hoped that, this time, this Bill would not be delayed, but that it would be first business. I was assured that to-day it would come on very soon after the commencement of business. We all know that in either House things can happen, and I am not complaining about the very interesting debate to which we have all just listened. That has nothing to do with it. But I do say from these Back Benches that I think this is gross mismanagement of the business of this House, and I, for one, feel extremely angry. Many of us here have other jobs to do, and I see no reason why we should have to come on additional nights, or to sit very late or come additional days, because of this sort of thing.

This is a Bill in which a good many Members of your Lordships' House are interested. We have been waiting since half-past two, and it is now five to seven; and we have not started yet. I think this treatment will go on unless we Back Benchers get and say that we will not have it—and I, for one, am not prepared to have it. I think it is grossly discourteous. If I am wrong, and the business of the House is so overladen that at the moment we cannot help it, then I have make a mistake; but my impression is that it is not. I consider that those who are better informed than I, and who would know that delays of this nature will occur, should arrange our business so that Public Bills come on at a reasonable hour. I hope that other noble Lords will join me in this protest.

BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD

My Lords, I should like on behalf of myself—I am speaking for the Consumer Council—to support what the noble Baroness has just said. This is a very important Bill. It is a Bill which we have been waiting for, working for and longing for, and we are anxious to help it. It is not a highly controversial Bill at all: it is one on which we can work together. I think it should not have been put on, as it has been, as the last piece of business to-day. I agree with the noble Baroness that the debate we have just listened to was extremely interesting, and I would not have curtailed that in any way, but I would not have put this Bill down on the same day. I think it is a great pity and I feel slightly aggrieved, though I dare say one should not. I think business really should have been arranged better than it has been.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, I should like to add my name to the protest of my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry and my noble friend Lady Elliot of Harwood about the amount of delay before this Committee stage has been reached. We realise, of course, that the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill is a most important Bill, but I should have thought that it would be patently obvious that that kind of subject, important as it is, would attract a great many speakers. Why, in this case, I must ask the Government, is the Consumer Protection Bill Committee separated from the Legitimation Scotland Bill Committee, and the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill put in between? I must ask the Government, therefore, whether they will reconsider the place in which this Bill is to be put on the Order Paper. As my noble friends have said, it is a very important Bill. It is a highly detailed Bill, and it is a Bill on which a great many of us have put in a great deal of work. It is a Bill which we sincerely wish to improve in every way, and one deserving of a higher priority than it is being given at present. I therefore hope that the Government will give an assurance that on the other days which are given to this Committee the Bill will be given the priority that it deserves.

LORD AIREDALE

My Lords, while I have a good deal of sympathy with what has been said, I should point out that I think we are all completely out of order. There is no Motion before the House, and I rather think that if the noble Lord, Lord Brown, had been given the opportunity to move this Motion when called upon to do so, he might have said something which would have caused us not to heap quite such hot coals of fire upon his head.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)

My Lords, I will ask my noble friend Lord Brown to deal with the situation, as he was proposing to deal with the Bill. I heard in my room that anger was mounting in the House, and when I came in I found that I had been correctly informed and that it has been expressed in various degrees. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, for feeling that she ought not to feel aggrieved. That, I thought, was very Christian of her. I must not complain of the attitude of the other speakers. The "usual channels" work very well. Nobody congratulates the usual channels—they are not there for the purposes of congratulations—if nothing goes wrong; but if anything takes an unforeseen form, which causes inconvenience, then naturally—and it is right and proper in a House of Parliament—complaints are expressed. One cannot possibly take exception to that. I take the full responsibility. That is the business of the Leader of the House. I express regret to my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry, and to anyone else who has been inconvenienced. I assure the House that the greatest care will be taken to see that this particular situation does not arise again.

THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD BROWN)

My Lords, I hope I am not going to add fuel to the fire when I say that I do not propose moving that the House should resolve itself into Committee. There have been discussions through the normal channels and it is proposed that we do not commence the Committee stage of the Consumers' Protection Bill this evening. It had already been agreed that the House should rise from the Committee stage at about 7.30 p.m., and in view of the fact that we should have had only half an hour left, it did not seem proper that we should attempt to deal with a Bill of this importance in that short time and then to leave it over. There will be most of Thursday, I understand, available for the Committee stage and, if necessary, Monday. I also understand that an announcement will be made tomorrow as to whether we can go on until eight o'clock or until after dinner; but that has not yet been settled. My Lords, I am afraid that I have dealt with only one other Bill in your Lordships' House before; and I attracted a lot of troubles with that. I seem to have attracted a lot more trouble with my second. If I have had any part in it, I apologise to the House.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for making that announcement? I am certain that it accords with the wishes of the House that we should not start on the Committee stage at this late hour, or try to go on to-night. Having said that, I welcome his suggestion that we should have most of Thursday—I hope that we may have it all—and no doubt we can agree as to whether we should sit late. I am sure that there is no disagreement in principle to sitting late on Thursday. It is just a question of seeing how far such a course would meet with the wishes of the House.

Having said that, I would add that there is perhaps some force in what the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, has said. I think that perhaps she is pre-empting rather than complaining of the past. I certainly hope that we shall not have the same experience as we had when the Bill was before the House on the last occasion. I noted that, of the three days that we then sat, on one occasion we started just before 6 o'clock and on another at 8.30 p.m. I hope that this will not be our experience in the course of this Bill. I welcome the statement of the noble Lord, Lord Brown, that the Government regard this as an important Bill and I hope we may regard this as a good augury of the handling of the Bill. I was privileged to sit on the "bank" of the normal channels in the discussions that have just taken place, and I am certain that we can arrange this matter amicably for the future.