HL Deb 02 May 1967 vol 282 cc861-6

4.32 p.m.

THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT)

My Lords, I intervene after a maiden speech from the noble Viscount, Lord Monckton of Brenchley, of quite remarkable quality, to which I shall want to refer again later. But, with your Lordships' permission, I should now like to repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs.

Perhaps before quoting the Statement I might be permitted to remonstrate in the most amiable way with the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition who, with some justification, teased me about my answer to him yesterday. If he will examine the OFFICIAL REPORT I know he will find that, so far from suggesting that the Statement might be made afterwards, I in fact said that I expected it might be made well beforehand. As to the exact timing of the Statement, the noble Lord has enough experience of the joys and inhibitions of Government to know quite well that, even if he was surprised by to-day's Statement, I was not. May I now pass on to repeat the Statement being made in another place. It goes as follows:

"I apologise to the House for taking up its time with a second Statement this afternoon, but there are simultaneous announcements being made in Washing ton and Bonn and I felt that honourable and right honourable Members would wish to have this information given directly to them at the earliest opportunity.

"My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer informed the House on April 11 that the Tripartite discussions with the United States and the Federal Republic of Germany had made satisfactory progress and that we were confident that it would be possible to cover by far the greater part of the foreign exchange costs of our forces in Germany during the current year.

"At the Tripartite meeting held in London last week agreement was reached on proposals that would be put to our allies in respect of some redeployment of forces in Germany. We were also able to confirm the associated financial arrangements. I am now able to inform the House of these and of the proposals that have been put to our partners in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and the Western European Union.

"As regards our forces in Germany, we propose to redeploy to the United Kingdom one brigade group and to make economies in the expenditure on the Second Tactical Air Force, including the redeployment of one squadron. These forces would remain earmarked for assignment to Supreme Allied Commander Europe. The movement of these forces to the United Kingdom would be completed during the last quarter of the current financial year. The United Kingdom Permanent Representative to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation has informed our allies of these proposals which will be taken into account in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation defence planning process. These proposals have also been put to the Western European Union Council in accordance with the Brussels Treaty.

"The new Anglo-German offset agreement will provide for off-setting payments in the defence and civil sectors amounting to nearly £50 million. The arrangements are very similar to those under the current agreement, with this difference, that separate target figures are specified for the defence and civil sectors.

"The United States Government are also taking certain measures which will have the effect of relieving our balance of payments in 1967–68. They have moved certain air force units to this country and have undertaken to make further purchases in the defence field in addition to those which they promised to make last November. Half of the latter can be attributed to the year 1967–68. In all, the advantage which will accrue to the balance of payments will amount to a little over £20 million.

"Finally, the proposed redeployment of forces would result in foreign exchange savings of about £5½ million in a full year but of course much less in 1967–68. At their present strength the deutschmark costs of our forces would have been £82 million. The arrangements which are described will, as my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer informed the House in his Budget speech, enable us to cover roughly £72 million of this total.

"The House will, I am sure, welcome the overall agreement which has been reached in these discussions with our allies. The net foreign exchange burden of our forces in Germany will this year be less than it has been for many years. It is, moreover, recognised by the three Governments concerned that the balance-of-payments consequences resulting from stationing of forces abroad for the common defence continue to pose a problem for joint attention."

My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for repeating this Statement. And I forgive him, on my noble friend's behalf, for not doing the job yesterday. On the face of it, this would appear to be a more satisfactory outcome than appeared likely, given the way in which these negotiations were initiated in the panic days of last July; and I think that the Minister of State Mr. George Thomson, and his officials, deserve our congratulations. We shall doubtless have an opportunity during the debate to discuss bits and pieces of the Statement.

I should like to confine myself now to merely two points. In the first place, I note the phrase in the Statement that the forces being withdrawn, the brigade group and squadron, remain earmarked for assignment to the Supreme Allied Commander Europe. Am I right in thinking that there is a difference between assigning these forces to SACEUR and earmarking such forces for assignment? Secondly, I note that these proposals are being put to our allies in the Western European Union Council and in NATO. Do the Government propose to seek the assent of our allies? And if by any misfortune they do not secure that assent, what do they propose to do about it?

4.38 p.m.

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, we on these Benches welcome this Statement. We feel that it is inevitable owing to the balance-of-payments difficulties. As to the actual details, I found it rather difficult to take in all the figures, in view of the complexity of the subject. But there is one question I should like to ask the noble Lord, if I may, and it is this. In view of the large numbers of troops who will soon be coming home to this country—not only the brigade group from Germany which he mentioned, but also troops from Malaysia—are the Government aware that the amount of effort which has been shown up to now in obtaining houses and flats for leasing is, as I have mentioned previously in this House, not one which can be commended? Is it not time that they put some further effort and imagination into this field, because otherwise they will find that soldiers' families will be unable to be properly housed and there will be a scandal, and everybody will wonder why the problem was not foreseen. So would the Government kindly foresee the problem in good time for once?

THE EARL OF SWINTON

My Lords, may I put one question, which I think the noble Lord could answer, together with the previous one? It is a little hard to do the arithmetic in one's head, but could the noble Lord say, in round figures, the total number of men in the Army, and the total number of men in the Air Force, who will come home from Germany when the Brigade Group and the Air Force unit are brought back?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, first may I thank the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, for his congratulations to the Government on the way in which these negotiations have been brought to a successful conclusion. So far as the specific points which were made are concerned, of course there is a clear difference between the assigning of forces and earmarking them for assignment. It is a difference which I know is quite clear to the noble Earl, and in this case I confirm that the forces are assigned and not simply earmarked for assignment.

I shall, of course, bear in mind what has been said with regard to the housing of troops returning from Germany, and I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, that the Government will watch this problem closely and will make the necessary contingency plans. I am assured that at the moment there is no difficulty about the housing of troops and their families when they return from Germany. However, I can assure your Lordships that the Government will bear the point in mind. So far as the third question, about numbers, is concerned, I have not the exact information by me at the moment, but I am sure it is easily obtainable and it will be communicated to the noble Lord.

EARL. JELLICOE

My Lords, may I ask one further question of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont? He confirmed that there is a difference between "earmarked for assignment" and "assigned". My recollection of the Statement is that it said that these forces, on their return, will be earmarked for assignment. My recollection of the noble Lord's reply to me is that they would be assigned. I wonder whether he could clarify this point.

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, I had no intention of departing from the Statement which I have repeated, and if I did so inadvertently, I apologise. The point that I was at pains to make, and I should like to make it again, is that these forces will be available for the task which they were originally performing. The only difference is that they will be stationed in a different place. I apologise if I confused the noble Earl, and I do not wish in any way to depart from the Statement.

LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY

My Lords, would the noble Lord be kind enough to repeat a figure? I am not sure that I heard it aright. What is the total saving to the balance of payments which will be brought about by this decision?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, I am reluctant to repeat such a large slice of the Statement which I originally made. Perhaps the relevant information is contained in the paragraph that says: At their present strength the deutschmark costs of our forces would have been £82 million. The arrangements which are described will, as my right honourable friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, informed the House in his Budget speech, enable us to cover roughly £72 million of this total. I hope that answers the noble Lord's question.

LORD ST. OSWALD

My Lords, is the noble Lord able to tell the House which Brigade Group and which Squadron of the Royal Air Force will be with, drawn to the United Kingdom?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, I am not able to say that, but it is information which will be available in due course.