§ 3.35 p.m.
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD SHACKLETON)My Lords, with the permission of the House, I will now answer the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchyre, with regard to the position of children of Service families flying out for their holidays. There is no contradiction between the statement of the High Commissioner and the views of the military authorities. The decision whether or not to bring children out is one for the individual Service family in the light of their circumstances including, of course, their particular situation in Aden, and whether arrangements can be made to leave the child in the United Kingdom. In reaching their decision, the parents would be wise to take into account the High Commissioner's views. Some 3,000 children are already with their families in Aden. These families are under security protection and the temporary addition of 400 or so to their number will not add significantly to the problem.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, arising out of that reply, may I ask the Minister whether he really has given any positive advice to parents, other than saying, on the one hand, that they should pay attention to the High Commissioner's warning and, on the other hand, that there is very little risk because a whole lot of other children are there? With respect, that Answer does not get us very much further as regards the anxiety of parents. Further, is it not really rather deplorable administration on the part of Her Majesty's Government that this apparently contradictory advice should be given? Can the Government say whether, having 23 regard to the fact that they are always telling us, and quite rightly, that the security forces are well stretched in their duties and under constant strain, it really would not be an undue burden on those security forces to have further children to look after?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I do not see where the noble Lord sees the contradiction. The circumstances of each family in Aden vary. The High Commissioner's advice was directed at civilians, some of whom are living in more insecure areas than others. There is also a difference as between different Service families. The Service families know as well as anyone the extent to which they may or may not be living in an insecure situation. I do not quite know what it is the noble Lord wishes the Government to do. I have already indicated that this addition in the number of children will not add significantly to the security problem. Certain advice has been given by the High Commissioner, and Service families are advised to take that into account against the background of the particular circumstances in which they live.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, is it possible to accelerate the repatriation of the Service families concerned in this matter?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, there are proposals, indeed plans, for bringing back the families of Servicemen, and it has not so far been considered necessary to accelerate these. If it should be necessary, undoubtedly the Government would speed up the withdrawal.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, with respect, the Answer does really seem rather a quibble. The Government have not said whether they really support the High Commissioner's view or the military commander's view. In view of the fact that many of these families live outside military compounds, surely the Government should have the courage and initiative to say one way or the other whether these children should or should not go.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, the noble Lord cannot have listened to what I said. What I have said is that the Servicemen and their wives are themselves in the best position to judge their 24 particular circumstances. Some families live in very much more secure surroundings than others. If we were to adopt the noble Lord's suggestion, the logical thing would be to take the perfectly consistent point of the noble Lord, Lord Byers, and bring home the 3,000 who are already there. It has not been considered necessary to do so. The High Commissioner gave a range of advice and advised people to take this into account. It all depends on the individual circumstances.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, I am sorry to press this matter; I apologise to your Lordships for doing so. My terrible fear is shared by many of your Lordships, and even if one child were killed by terrorism the responsibility of those giving advice would be great, and the responsibility on Her Majesty's Government would be great. I think it is unfair to say to parents they should take account of this or that. In a position such as exists at Aden, surely it is for the Government to give a strong and powerful lead.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, the noble Lord need not apologise on a matter of such obvious importance and concern. It is the view of the military authorities—and this is not inconsistent with the advice the High Commissioner has given—that against a background as described, in which there is risk, they should take these factors into account in arriving at their decision. It must depend on the particular circumstances in which the family live. I can assure the noble Lord that the Government are watching this very closely indeed. We shall certainly take heed of what he has said. The logic of what he has said is that we ought now to bring all the families home, and this is not judged necessary at this juncture.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, surely the logic of what the noble Lord is saying is that the Government should reconsider this matter with a view to bringing home at least the families in the high risk areas.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, without wishing to go into too great detail, steps are being taken eventually to move families out of high risk areas, and this will increase according to how the 25 situation develops. I feel that in a flatter of this kind—let me make it clear there is no question of attempting to save the face of either the military commanders or the Government in a matter of such importance—the best people to judge the situation are our military commanders on the spot. Of course, they are being guided by all the circumstances. I do not see any inconsistency regarding the High Commissioner's general advice to civilians, including non-government civilians, people who are resident, that these are matters they should take into account.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I realise that the noble Lord is trying to be very helpful about this. May I ask whether or not there is a contradiction? I think, as a result of what has appeared in the papers this morning, many people will feel there is a contradiction of advice between the High Commissioner and the military authorities, and there may be some confusion. Could he devise some way in which the parents of these children are told exactly what the situation is?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I appreciate what the noble Lord has said. I am sorry to go on but I realise the House is concerned. I agree that in reading the Press reports there would appear to be a contradiction. The people who are taking these decisions are the parents out there. They are really in as good a position—indeed, in a far better position—to take advice and judge the risk. Certainly I take careful note of what the noble Lord has said.
§ LORD HENDERSONMy Lords, would the Minister not agree that some parents would be in a great difficulty about this matter? If they have no alternative home at this end, the children have no place to which they can be sent if they do not go out to join their parents in Aden. Will the Departments consider assisting parents in that particular difficulty, in fact for the children to be looked after during the period of the Easter holidays; and, if so, will they inform the Service families in Aden of the arrangements they propose to make?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, these, of course, are the real difficulties here. I certainly agree it is a matter which should be taken into account, and 26 I can assure the noble Lord that the Department will do their utmost to help.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, is it not a fact the policy we are pursuing is very similar to that which we pursued during the war, when we advised parents of evacuated children to keep them in the safe areas, but left it to the parents to decide what they should do under the special circumstances?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I think there is indeed a definite parallel in what the noble Baroness has said. I do not doubt for one moment the Government's responsibilities in this matter. Of course, the parents are in a position to judge the risk themselves.
LORD FARINGDONMy Lords, following on what my noble friend Lord Henderson has said, can Her Majesty's Government assure us that the facilities for sending children home from Aden are in fact available?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, of course the whole problem of moving families is a very complex one. The Defence Department have full plans, according to the state of the risk as they see it, to speed up any evacuation that is necessary. I would therefore say that the answer to my noble friend's question is, Yes.