DECIMAL CURRENCY: THE POUND UNIT (Hansard, 7 March 1967)

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)
My Lords, this task was carried out carefully and comprehensively by the Halsbury Committee, which was appointed by the previous Government. All the relevant evidence was taken into account by the Committee, and the Government gave full weight to the opinions which had been expressed before they took their decision. No new considerations have been put forward, either in general discussion or in the debates to which the noble Earl refers.

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his reply, but is he bearing in mind that the White Paper was published only just before Christmas? Is it not usual, and wise, when a decision of such magnitude is about to be taken, that the Government should consult the people in the country who know most about it, outside as well as inside the City of London? And can the noble Earl say whether, since the White Paper was issued, any representations have been received by the Government from industrialists, chambers of 1321 commerce, trade unions and consumer organisations?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I could not answer the last question without notice, but may I submit to the noble Earl that the Government's decision in principle was announced in March last year, two and a half years after the Halsbury Committee had reported. So that there had been wide opportunity, both while the Committee were sitting and taking evidence and during the three years that elapsed before the White Paper was issued, to take into account all these considerations.

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
I appreciate that, my Lords, but is the noble Earl aware that the Chancellor's announcement on March 1 last year was made as a kind of momentary diversion, in the middle of his pre-Election Budget statement, at a time when many people's minds were a little preoccupied with other matters?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I am not aware of that. I should regard it as a rather frivolous comment.

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
My Lords, does the noble Earl realise that there are people who are very disturbed about this decision, and is he aware that had the Halsbury Committee been sitting to-day they might possibly have felt that times have changed? Is he further aware that those of us—and I speak for myself—who would wish to support the Government are disturbed at the attitude the Government are taking by implying that the opposition comes from people whose views are really not worth considering, and that this is just not the case?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I am very glad that the noble Baroness is strongly supporting the Government, in spite of any indications to the contrary.

§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY
No; what I said was that I "would wish to".

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
I gather, then, that she would wish to, and that there is still a reasonable chance of her doing so. I would fall back on the wise words that flowed from the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury—and nobody could 1322 accuse him of any Party bias—who in our last debate on this matter said: We are merely talking about a factor of two in the size of the major unit, and it is not an issue on which any man should express intemperate opinions."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30/1/67, col. 831.] Very humbly and respectfully, I submit that to the House this afternoon.

§ BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware of the fact that the Decimal Currency Action Committee now has 16 organisations supporting it, among which are retail, distributive, manufacturing, commercial and transport interests? Will the noble Earl ask the Government to be kind enough to consult these representatives, who represent many millions of people in all these different fields?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, the Government—in fact Governments, both the last Government and this one—have now been considering this matter for over three years, and there comes a time when a Government must reach a decision. The decision has been reached. We shall always be very glad to hear from all these excellent people, but a decision has been reached.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, does the noble Earl realise that this is not a Party question at all? There are differing views on both sides of the House. Does it follow from what he has said that the Whips are going to be on, both in another place and here, on Government supporters to support the decision?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
I am sorry that the noble Lord should have introduced the question of Party. I said nothing whatever about it.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
The noble Earl did.

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
What did I say about Party? I give way to the noble Lord.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
The noble Earl quoted Lord Halsbury as saying that this was not a Party issue, and rather rebuked my noble friend.

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, clearly, as usual, I have failed to make myself sufficiently articulate. I 1323 did not wish to introduce Party considerations at all. I quoted the words of the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, who is a completely non-Party figure, in order to remove any sort of Party suggestion. This is not a question of Party consideration, but the Government have to reach a decision, and having reached the decision they must see it through.

§ LORD REDMAYNE
My Lords, why did the noble Earl quote the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, as saying that opinion expressed against the pound unit was intemperate? Is he therefore suggesting that all the multiplicity of opinion which is now being expressed is intemperate? Will he not understand, on behalf of the Government, that it is useless to use the argument that public opinion did not greatly express itself last March or thereafter, since public opinion regards this matter as something that is going to happen in the long-distant future, in 1971, and therefore it is only now, when the subject has become topical, that public opinion is expressing itself? Will not the Government listen to that opinion?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I am sorry that I have made myself so completely misunderstood. I simply brought in someone who might be regarded as non-Party in order to indicate that I thought this was not in any way a Party question. If noble Lords have come here to-day determined to fasten some Party attitude on me, I would only suggest that there was nothing in what I said to support that position.
May I answer the point put by the noble Lord, Lord Redmayne? He made a very powerful speech on this question a short while ago and, with great respect, I would point out that we had a debate on it just over a month ago, and I do not think the House will want to debate it again to-day. There is a Bill now before the House of Commons, which is another reason perhaps for not wanting to go into this subject at great length. But if we are talking of public opinion, may I remind your Lordships that the noble Lord, Lord Redmayne, did say, only a month ago [OFFICIAL REPORT, 30/1/67, col. 800]: …if you put the question to those who have had no reason to give the subject great thought—and they are, after all, the vast 1324 majority of the people—they would express precisely the same sentiment in favour of the pound. Therefore, while I am putting what I believe to be the expert point of view, if we are going to judge by public opinion, the noble Lord concedes that it is in favour of the pound.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, if this is not a Party question, why do the Government not allow a free vote?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
The noble Lord is quite aware of the answer to that one. Many issues are not Party questions—one might say that the Common Market is not a Party question. There are all sorts of questions which are not Party questions, but finally the Government of the day have to make up their mind. When that point is reached, they have to see it through. The noble Lord is perfectly aware of that position.

§ THE EARL OF SWINTON
My Lords, may I put this question to the Leader of the House? If it is necessary, contrary to what a great many people on his side and on the other sides think, to discipline the noble Earl's Party and Parliament on what are Party matters, is the Government's dictatorial attitude really going so far as to say that when there is something very like unanimity—at any rate, obviously a great majority opinion—in all parts of both Houses that a matter which the noble Earl admits is not a Party one requires reconsideration, that opinion is to receive no consideration?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I always defer to the noble Earl on any matter of experience and wisdom. But here I am bound to think that he comes under the censure of the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury (whom we all respect so much), for his use of "intemperate" language. There is no question of unanimity in this matter. The noble Lord, Lord Redmayne, who has made such a speciality of this question concedes that the vast majority of the British people at this moment would favour the pound unit.

§ LORD REDMAYNE
My Lords, if I may take up that point of the noble Earl, that was precisely the point of my supplementary. There was no urgency in the mind of the people on this matter, because they regarded it as being a long way off 1325 —in 1971. But now that it has become topical, public opinion is aroused and the Government should pay attention to it.

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, if I were not a rather biased participant in these discussions, I should venture to suggest to the noble Lord that he was making a speech.

LORD SALTOUN
My Lords, may I ask the Government to consider this point, which might help them very much? Will they publicly change their mind and then see the outcry which will come in favour of the pound unit?

§ LORD SOMERS
My Lords, in view of the differences of opinion on this subject, does not the noble Earl consider it a little disappointing that, when my noble friend Lord Sinclair of Cleeve produced a very effective compromise between the two systems, he received no reply whatsoever from the Government speaker?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I should not like to criticise in any way any proposals which flowed from such a great industrial expert as the noble Lord, Lord Sinclair of Cleeve. But I would repeat that the Halsbury Committee reported in the autumn of 1963, so there was plenty of time for compromises before 1967.

§ BARONESS STOCKS
My Lords, would it not be expedient, from the point of view of public relations, at a time when the Government have been accused, rightly or wrongly, of "steam-rollering", to allow a free vote on a matter which does not raise any question of social justice or Party policy?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I was not quite sure when the noble Lady began which side she was on, but I gather she is not on the side of the Government. Is that right?

§ BARONESS STOCKS
My Lords, I am very much on the side of the Government. I want their public relations to be as good as possible.

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lady for calling my attention to the need for better public relations. But may I say that this is an important economic issue; 1326 and it is one that should be determined in the interests of the ultimate welfare of the British people, and not, if I may say so with great respect, in the interests of the public relations of any particular Government.

§ LORD AIREDALE
My Lords, if they have not already done so, will Her Majesty's Government consult the foreign bankers with regard to the international aspect of this matter, bearing in mind that this is something which the Halsbury Committee did not do, the Halsbury Committee having been told by the Bank of England that it was no use consulting foreign bankers because different foreign bankers might give different replies?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord's suggestion would help the cause of those who favour the smaller unit. We are told that the opinion would be likely to be in favour of the pound unit. But, seriously, to say at this time of the day that we have to go back and consult foreign bankers, would be, I think, a derogation from our own British strength.

§ LORD AIREDALE
But the foreign bankers have not been consulted so far, because the Bank of England persuaded the Halsbury Committee not to consult them.

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I cannot say off-hand whether they have or have not been consulted. But there is no doubt whatever that those concerned with international trade have been thoroughly consulted.

§ LORD HARLECH
Yes, my Lords, but since the Halsbury Committee reported has it not become very clear that this idea that foreign bankers might take flight from the pound because it was a 10s. unit rather than a pound unit is now not supported by anybody?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I am not sure whether there is a clash between the noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Airedale, seeemed to be stressing the need for our looking at the international aspects of the matter, but in fact he is well aware that the Government consider that the arguments in favour of the course proposed are both international and national, and in each case 1327 all those most relevant have at some time been consulted.

§ LORD HARLECH
My Lords, did I not understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that he no longer laid any stress on the international argument?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I do not think that is right. I think he said that more stress is now laid on the national aspect.

§ LORD CONESFORD
My Lords, since the noble Earl the Leader of the House has said in answer to most of the supplementaries that he is not quite sure whether or not the questioner is on the side of the Government, may I ask him this question? Does he not think it possible that some of the Socialist Back-Benchers are on the side of the Government; and if he thinks that possible, why should their request for a debate before the Second Reading comes up be ignored?

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I gather that is intended to be ironical, but, frankly, I do not think it is a contribution to this discussion. May I, with very great deference, suggest to the House that I have been given quite a good run around, as one might say, and that we might perhaps now pass on to the other business.