PROCEDURE COMMITTEE (Hansard, 19 June 1967)

§ THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL)
My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE EARL OF PERTH
My Lords, I do not know whether it is in order to ask any questions about this Motion. What I should like to ask is this. I think we shall probably all welcome the addition of four new members to the Procedure Committee. As I understand this development, it is in some degree due to the debates that there have been over the past years and the suggestion that some new life should be given to the Procedure Committee.
One of the last things that I desire is to be in any way personal in relation to the people who have been chosen, but, if I may put it in this way, it seems to me that it is really what I would call an Establishment choice: that is to say, there is one Labour Member, one Conservative Member, one Liberal Member and one Cross-Bencher. What could be fairer than that! But I recall that in the debates—I am not sure that it was not even the noble Earl the Leader of the House who said it—it was thought 1165 that it would be a good thing for the Procedure Committee if new blood, which might be some rebels and definitely young, and probably Back-Bench, were introduced. I am not clear that all of the noble Lords whose names are on the Order Paper perhaps fulfil that role, at any rate in relation to being rebels. I think that is a pity, and while I certainly should not wish to oppose any of the names shown, I should like to ask whether this is a pattern, or whether, indeed, these are to be the noble Lords who will go on virtually for ever, as is the usual practice with whose who are chosen for the Procedure Committee. If that is the case, I think it is a pity.

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, I am not quite sure whether it is I or the Lord Chairman who should say a word in reply to the noble Earl, Lord Perth. I feel that he is unnecessarily depressed as a result of his initiative. I think that here we have found four outstanding Members of the House who will add a great deal to the life of this Committee. As we owe it to the noble Earl, we ought to be grateful to him in respect of his rather acid comments. He claims that these gentlemen will not be sufficiently rebellious. I am not quite sure how you select rebellious members of a Select Committee. There are professional rebels here, I suppose, but we should not necessarily think that they would be the most satisfactory people to choose as members of the Procedure Committee. We have been able to choose fresh blood.
We shall have these noble Lords with us for a great many years. We have been asked to choose young members. Well, "youth" is a relative term in this House. We are here in an ascending scale, and no one will claim that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, or the noble Lord, Lord Willis, is old. The other members are the noble Lords, Lord Byers and Lord Caccia. It seems only yesterday that Lord Byers was hurdling for Oxford, and that Lord Caccia was playing Rugby football for the same university; so I assume that they are still very vigorous men. Therefore, taking it all round, I think the noble Lord can set his mind at rest.

LORD SALTOUN
My Lords, I am not at all sure that it would be wise of your Lordships' House to choose revolutionary Members to serve on your Lordships' Committees. The place for revolution is in this Chamber itself. When your Lordships send business to a Committee, you want to have some assurance that it will be carried out in accordance with the ancient precedents, and that those precedents will not be varied unnecessarily. I can imagine that in Committees other than the Procedure Committee to appoint extremely rebellious members might overturn all the normal processes of the business which comes before your Lordships' House.

§ THE EARL OF PERTH
My Lords, after all it would be only four out of 28 members. I did ask a question, and I should like to have it answered.

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, perhaps the noble Earl will feel that, as we are discussing a Report on Procedure, we ought to be extremely careful about following the procedure. I am not sure that there is any procedure of the House which enables the noble Earl to speak again. By permission, of course, he can do anything.

§ THE EARL OF PERTH
My Lords, I accept that, and I am sorry that I have offended. But may I, by your leave, say this? I asked a question which has not been answered. The question was whether these latest members of the Procedure Committee will expect that they are probably on the Committee for life, or whether the probability is that from time to time there may be change.

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD
My Lords, this is a matter for the Lord Chairman, but I do not think that even the Lord Chairman could give an assurance about the tenure of these gentlemen. I feel sure that they will all last a great deal longer as members of the Committee than I shall last as Leader of the House; but I can say no more than that.