§ 2.36 p.m.
§ LORD REDMAYNEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what were the total number of British troops in Hong Kong, Singapore, Western Malaysia and Eastern Malaysia, respectively, immediately before the confrontation with Indonesia began.]
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD SHACKLETON)My Lords, the approximate strengths of the Services in Hong Kong, Singapore and Western Malaysia before confrontation, which I have taken as at September 30, 1962, were as follows: Hong Kong, 9,500; Singapore, 27,000, and West Malaysia, 13,500. The figures include Gurkhas and locally enlisted personnel, and ships on sea service based on Hong Kong and Singapore. There were no British troops stationed in what is now Eastern Malaysia.
§ LORD REDMAYNEMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. All I really want to get is a like-for-like comparison as between the situation before confrontation and that after confrontation. I am a little confused by the statement made by the Secretary of State in another place on May 1, in that he referred to men and women working in and for the Services. May I therefore ask the noble Lord whether he can give me a straight comparison in one form or another, either in terms of Servicemen, or in terms of Servicemen with civilians?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I should like to help the noble Lord, but I do not find it as easy as I should wish to meet the particular points he is asking. 912 However, I will give him what information I can, although, strictly speaking, his points do not arise out of this Question. What Mr. Healey said in his reply in another place about a reduction to 20,000 was, I am afraid, a slip of the tongue, and a correction was made in the OFFICIAL REPORT of another place on May 5. But I do not blame the noble Lord for not spotting it, because I myself had not spotted the correction.
On the comparisons, my right honourable friend said that he expects the total of the three forces in Singapore and Malaysia, Servicemen and civilians, including crews on sea service in the Far East and locally employed personnel, will be about 70,000 in April, 1968. This does not include Hong Kong, where there are about 12,000 Servicemen and civilians. The total strength after confrontation, which was at the highest point, taking into account all the Services and civilians was 102,000 on July 1, 1966. In relation to that, the noble Lord will recall that there was this anticipated reduction of a total of 20,000—a reduction by that number. I am afraid that I may not have cleared the noble Lord's mind very much. If he would like to pursue this matter with a Question on the specific point he has in mind, I will try to help him a little more
§ LORD RHODESMy Lords, is it not true to say that approximately 35,000 civilians are employed by the three Services in Singapore alone?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, again this is going a little wide of the Question, which relates to the troops before the Indonesian confrontation. I think it would be difficult to break down the exact number, but the noble Lord will not be far out in his assumption. But I rather think that my right honourable friend, so far as the future is concerned, has not yet forecast what the final split will be.
THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, may I ask whether I should be correct in deducing that the figure before confrontation in Malaysia and Singapore was about 30,000, and the figure in Malaysia and Singapore to-day is equally about 30,000?
§ LORD SHACKLETONIs the noble Earl referring to troops or to troops and civilians?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, on a quick addition, the figure for Singapore and Malaysia was in 1962 about 50,000, and at the end of confrontation, if I can do my mathematics quickly enough, it would seem to be something over 60,000. What I cannot tell him is the precise position of the run-down at the moment. But it is of that order of difference between the two figures so far as troops are concerned.