§ 4.17 p.m.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)My Lords, with permission, I should like to repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister on Lord Alport's visit to Rhodesia. I will, if I may, make use of my right honourable friend's own words, and now I am quoting the Prime Minister:
"I undertook to inform the House of the noble Lord, Lord Alport's impressions following his visit to Rhodesia. Lord Alport has made a very full oral report to my right honourable friend the Commonwealth Secretary and myself of his findings and recommendations. He has reported 721 that (and I quote the words he has himself suggested),' after weighing the evidence obtained by him during his three weeks' visit to Rhodesia, during which he had an opportunity of meeting and discussing with a very large number of people the problems inherent in the achievement by negotiation of a solution honourable to both Britain and Rhodesia and which Her Majesty's Government would be prepared in due course to recommend to Parliament for its acceptance, he (Lord Alport) has concluded that, while in his opinion there can be no certainty at this stage regarding the eventual outcome of such a negotiation, the prospects of achieving success are likely to become less rather than greater with the lapsing of time. Lord Alport considers that it would be advisable in the interests of British policy, as in those of all races in Rhodesia, that Her Majesty's Government should take the initiative in setting on foot the preliminaries to a negotiation for a settlement.' That concludes the quotation from Lord Alport's views.
"I should like to express the thanks of the Government for the extremely thorough way in which Lord Alport has undertaken his task. He saw over a thousand Rhodesians, representing all races and every shade of opinion on the political future of Rhodesia. The House will be aware that he was refused permission to see certain detainees he asked to see, though he did have the opportunity of talks with other representatives of African Nationalist opinion.
"While he met a number of people, including influential members of the Rhodesia Front, who are opposed to any settlement which does not amount to a complete surrender by the British Government of the principles we have sought to uphold, he is convinced that a majority of the Europeans, and indeed many of the Africans he met, are anxious for a negotiated settlement with Britain.
"I must, however, make clear to the House that, despite Lord Alport's very thorough discussion with leading members of the régime, I cannot regard his report as providing conclusive evidence that—to quote the phrase I used when I announced his mission— 722
'Mr. Smith, with the authority of his Rhodesia Front colleagues, is prepared to enter into meaningful discussions—that is to say discussions leading to a solution which Parliament could accept'.Equally the noble Lord was not in a position to bring back any guarantee that, if any meaningful agreement were to emerge, Mr. Smith would not once again, as after 'Tiger', be over-ruled by the extremist members of his régime."Lord Alport, in his meetings with Mr. Smith, felt himself precluded, in my view rightly, by the terms of his mission from entering into any discussions which might be regarded as a negotiation. Lord Alport tells me, however, that Mr. Smith indicated to him that he had all along said and believed that a Constitution based on the 'Tiger' proposals—which were themselves based on the 1961 Constitution—was acceptable. But he told Lord Alport there were some aspects of the 'Tiger' Constitution which he and his colleagues would like to see changed there were some details which had been arrived at quickly, under pressure of the time-table, and these needed looking at again. Since the 'Tiger' talks, he said, one or two other points had occurred to him which he believed were reasonable and would improve the Constitution.
"Lord Alport has now recommended that, without commitment, we should proceed to clarify what these points are. The Government are therefore authorising the Governor, to whose steadfastness and courage once again I would pay full tribute, to undertake this task.
"I must make clear that, in taking this limited step, Her Majesty's Government fully reserve their position on NIBMAR, and on the return to legality and the kind of broad-based Government of national unity which would be required for any major step forward. No doubt Mr. Smith, for his part, will continue during this process to assert what he calls his independence.
"Our partners in the Commonwealth have been informed of this decision. We shall continue to keep in close touch with the whole Commonwealth and it is intended that the Commonwealth Secretary during the Recess should have discussions with leaders of 723 African Commonwealth countries about all aspects of the Rhodesian problem."
My Lords, that concludes the Prime Minister's Statement. But I feel sure that the whole House will wish to pay a sincere tribute to Lord Alport.
§ 4.22 p.m.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, we are obliged to the noble Earl the Leader of the House for repeating that Statement. When it was announced that my noble friend Lord Alport was going out to Rhodesia, I took the opportunity of wishing him every success in his task; and I, too, should like to join with the noble Earl, Lord Longford, in thanking him for the hard work that he put in during the three weeks or so that he was away, and for the report that he has made.
I think that this Statement shows that there is a chink of light in the Rhodesian situation. Certainly it is much better that there should be exploratory conversations of this sort rather than that there should be no contact between the two parties, and I think everyone on this side of the House would like to welcome that, so far as it goes. I take it—indeed, I think this was said in the Statement—that both sides will reserve their own positions while this contact goes on. I do not press the noble Earl, because I do not wish to embarrass the Government in any way, but supposing it were found that there was a possibility of further negotiations, I wonder whether the noble Earl could say what he envisages, and what time-scale he envisages for such further talks?
§ 4.24 p.m.
§ LORD WADEMy Lords, on behalf of my Liberal colleagues and myself, may I join in thanking the noble Earl for repeating this Statement? We should also like to convey to the noble Lord, Lord Alport, our thanks for his services. It so happened that I was in Salisbury at the same time as the noble Lord, Lord Alport, and I can confirm from my own observation that there were a great many people who wanted to see him, and he went out of his way to see as many people as possible.
Apart from the detailed points which are to be clarified by the Governor (in 724 this I wish him well) would the noble Earl agree that there are real doubts in the minds of many people as to whether the leaders of the Rhodesian Front have any genuine intention of removing racial discrimination and moving towards African majority rule? At the same time, there are doubts in the minds of a number of white Rhodesians as to the willingness of the British Government and British people to understand their particular problems. What have the Government in mind to try to resolve these mutual doubts, since I believe that these constitute the major obstacle to a return to legality by mutual agreement?
§ 4.26 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, I am most grateful to both noble Lords for their comments. As the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said, it is quite true that the positions on both sides are reserved. He raised a hypothetical question which could become immensely important, but he was kind enough to say he would not press it. I would only say to Lord Wade that those who saw the way the noble Lord, Lord Alport, comported himself in his visit are full of admiration, as indeed one would expect. I do not think I will speculate about the motives or attitudes of the leaders of the Rhodesian Front. We must all try to be optimistic rather than pessimistic, without entertaining false hopes.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, like my noble friend Lord Carrington, I hope that we may understand from this Statement that the door to a settlement is, even now, not completely closed. That, at any rate, is something. But there is one thing I feel I must say. I have read in the papers during the last few days the suggestion that Her Majesty's Government will be willing to give Rhodesia a last chance. Pray, do not let us "kid" ourselves with such a travesty of the facts. The truth is—and I say it in no offensive sense—that if Rhodesia agrees to re-enter into negotiations, it is Rhodesia who will be giving us a last chance. I only hope that the Prime Minister will recognise that he no longer, if he ever did, controls this situation. I believe—I say this with all deference—that his duty to this country surely is to get the best terms he can.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, I think that whatever the noble 725 Marquess says in this House always deserves an answer, but I never thought the day would come when he would actually say that Rhodesia was giving us a last chance. When we think that the whole world is lined up against Rhodesia—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No, no!
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDWell, I am entitled to my opinion, and I say that when the whole world is lined up against Rhodesia as long as she pursues this unconstitutional course, I am afraid the prospect to me looks very different.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, when the Prime Minister said that the Government reserve their position on certain matters, including no independence without majority rule, did he imply that the Government are maintaining the principles for which they have stood and to which they are committed to the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference?
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, the Government are maintaining all their principles.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, while my noble friend has stated that the positions on both sides are reserved, may I take it from this Statement that the amount of good will on both sides is unreserved?
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, certainly the amount of good will on our side towards the Rhodesian people is unreserved. That is clear. To say that it is unreserved towards the Rhodesian régime would pose me a problem in semantics that I will not pursue this afternoon. How much good will there is towards this country in the Rhodesian régime is again something upon which I would not speculate.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the Rhodesian régime has the good will of Rhodesians; and that although, as my noble friend Lord Carrington said, we must be glad at a chink of light, it seems to me from what the noble Earl said, and the attitude of mind that he adopts to it, that there is little prospect that anything will happen from these negotiations?
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, it would be hard to say that the régime has the good will of the great majority of the 4 million Rhodesians.
§ 4.30 p.m.
§ LORD COLERAINEMy Lords, I gathered from the Prime Minister's statement that the purpose of these negotiations is to reach a settlement honourable to both sides. That being so, it seems to me that the Government must now admit that even the Rhodesian r¹gime has some right on its side. And if we really are genuine in our desire for a settlement honourable to both sides, would it not be very deirable for us to cease attacking Mr. Smith's Government, to cease referring to the past, but rather to look to the future, and even to give the other side in the negotiation the courtesy of calling them by their right name—in other words, by referring to "the Government of Rhodesia", rather than to "the régime"? If the noble Lord could do that, and if the Prime Minister could do that, I feel that it would have an immense effect in securing a settlement honourable to both sides.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, as I said of the noble Marquess, anything that comes from the noble Lord comes from a man of outstanding sincerity, but this is an illegal r¹gime, and I do not see why one should ignore this fact in commenting upon it. I hope that I did not say anything, and I hope that there is nothing in the Statement, which is intended to be personally offensive about these gentlemen. The noble Lord, Lord Coleraine, has asked me whether I agree that they have some right. Well, I agree that all human beings have much that is good in them, but what they stand for, so far as our Government are concerned, has no right in it.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that many of the remarks and statements coming from that side of the House are going to be most unhelpful in getting a fair and proper settlement for all Rhodesians.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, I should think that might be quite possible.
§ LORD GIFFORDMy Lords, in view of the report from Rhodesia which was published in the Sunday Times last week showing quite clearly that the r¹gime is moving inexorably towards apartheid and separate development, would not my noble friend agree that, in the face of that sort of intransigence, the prospect 727 of meaningful negotiations is very small indeed?
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, I think that would be going too far. I could not agree that there would be much point in embarking on these exploratory conversations if one took quite such a pessimistic view as that.