§ 2.47 p.m.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government why Mrs. Sandra Hutson, an American citizen who is a graduate with academic honours of Mills College, who has had substantial experience in teaching and in social work, and who wishes to devote herself to the teaching of maladjusted children in this country, has been refused recognition as a qualified teacher.]
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science accepts American graduates, if their degrees are comparable in character as well as standard to degrees obtained in the British Isles. The subjects which Mrs. Hutson studied for her degree of B.A. from Mills College were unfortunately too diffuse to be equated in character with a degree obtainable in the British Isles. This, of course, implies no reflection on the standard of Mills College. According to information which the Department has received, her teaching experience, all in the United States, amounts to a little over three years, including some supervised vacational work as a student teacher, two years assisting in a private nursery school, and one year teaching art in a home for unmarried mothers in San Franciso. Mrs. Hutson also claims one year of social work among delinquent youths.
§ LORD SNOWMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for her Answer, but I must say that I find it profoundly unsatisfactory. I think that for any country to decide not only the standards of another country but the nature of its education is utterly preposterous. Is my noble friend aware that in fact an English graduate holding an old-style Cambridge degree would not by most of us be regarded as comparable in class with the holders of well-known American women's scholarships?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, the noble Lord will appreciate that he is probably better informed on this than I am. I would merely say that it is necessary, in considering the claims to qualified teacher status of people educated overseas, to be aware of what is required of our people, and the Department is, of course, constantly in contact with the American Universities in that connection.
§ LORD SNOWMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that precisely the same answer, in almost precisely the same words, was given 12 years ago to another American graduate wishing to teach in this country, and that this case went on for four years before Sir Edward Boyle intervened personally? I have the correspondence here. At this rate, it seems to me that the Department of Education and Science will take 8,000 years— 2,000 times 4—to reach any reasonable solution of the equivalents of American degrees to ours. This is a long time.
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I will certainly see what I can do for the noble Lord. As he will be well aware, I have already talked to my right honourable friend on this matter. This is possibly cold comfort, but I am given to understand that the Department is able to accept the majority of United States graduates. However, I will pursue this further on behalf of the noble Lord. More I cannot promise at this stage.
§ LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the Government could not go into the matter a little further, since in this field surely the best qualifications are a sense of dedication and a vocation for the task, which I have reason to believe this lady possesses to the full?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I am afraid that as an ex-teacher myself I could not agree entirely with the noble Lord. Vocation and feeling for the task, yes; but I think that nothing could be a complete substitute for training in this rather difficult field of operations.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, can the noble Baroness tell us whether the question really concerns equivalence of degrees, or qualification as a teacher?—because the two things are not identical.
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, the two things are not identical, but, as the noble Lord will no doubt be aware, at the moment (I think I made this point earlier) in considering claims for qualified teacher status a degree of a British university is for the time being accepted for such status. Therefore, I think there is some reason behind Mrs. Hutson's making a claim on these grounds.