HL Deb 19 July 1967 vol 285 cc251-3

2.30 p.m.

LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the boom of an aeroplane flying at supersonic speed over Bristol on 10th July, 1967, in pursuance of Government policy put delicate surgical instruments out of alignment at Frenchay Hospital; whether Her Majesty's Government expected such results from such flights and found them acceptable; and, if not, what action they are taking.]

THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD SHACKLETON)

My Lords, I understand that two isolated instances of momentary fluctuation in the calibration of equipment were reported. In each case the equipment immediately returned to normal and no damage of any kind occurred. The matter is being kept under review by the hospital.

LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him, in clarification, whether the Government dispute that the hospital suffered temporary interference with their instruments, as reported in The Times and as set out in my Question, and that they have received complaints from this important centre of brain surgery? Does he not think that in the event of an operation being performed at that time the damage might have been important?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I did not quite hear all the noble Lord's question; if I missed any of it I apologise. There is no suggestion that I have seen in the way of a complaint of this hospital that an operation was in any way interfered with. In one case there was a momentary fluctuation in the nearby hospital in an electrocardio-graphic machine; no doubt there was an unusual trace on the recording paper which, if the cause had not been found, might have aroused some surprise. Certainly the reports from the hospital do not suggest any serious interference in any way at all.

LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord if he will answer the further question that I originally put: whether this result of these flights surprised Her Majesty's Government and whether they found these results acceptable?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I think it is too early for the Government to say whether they were acceptable. This is part of a whole series of tests. The noble Lord asked me whether they were expected; he certainly asked that in his original Question. Of course, the purpose of the tests is to find out what results there are. I think if they were not expected it is conceivable that one might say that one was not surprised that they happened.

LORD REA

My Lords, when the tests were originally announced we expressed our gratitude that they were to be by daylight and not at night. I further asked whether we could have the actual timing when it would happen, so that the elderly or very young, or pregnant women, or animals might not suffer undue shock and could take the necessary action. May I ask the noble Lord whether it is still the Government's policy to have these tests at unexpected times, so as to assess the surprised terror among the nation?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I do not think the noble Lord should anticipate surprised terror. I suppose one could warn an animal in some way. The object of these tests is to establish what reaction there is. I quite agree that there can be, and are, undesirable results, but clearly the Government must make up their minds on this question, and a primary idea behind the tests is that in a number of cases people should not be aware of or expecting them. If they were, it could vitiate the objectivity; it could also vitiate the tests, because people, being aware of them, might not suffer from this very fear to which the noble Lord referred. This is a very difficult problem, and I think it is vital that we should get objective information on this matter.

LORD MOYNIHAN

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there have been reports of premature whelping of thoroughbred dogs as a result of these tests? Is he also aware that thoroughbred dogs are a considerable export from this country, and is he further aware that it is possible to comfort thoroughbred dogs through such an experience so that this would not happen?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I think I can only congratulate the noble Lord.

LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, may I ask whether noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, will make clear what I think has been made clear in another place: that the tests now being conducted are carried out by an aeroplane which makes very much less noise than the Concord, if allowed to fly at supersonic speed over this country, would make?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, certainly these particular tests are not intended to simulate precisely the effect of an over-pressure from the Concord. It is obviously better to begin with lesser bangs before one proceeds on to bigger bangs.

LORD CONESFORD

Why? Is it the idea that we should be worn down?