HL Deb 18 July 1967 vol 285 cc209-16

3.24 p.m.

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM) rose to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Summer Time Order, 1967, be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on July 6. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Summer Time Acts, 1922 and 1925, provide a formula for fixing the period of summer time in any year, under which it is to run from the latter part of April until the early part of October. The Act of 1947 enables this period to be varied, by Order in Council, subject to the prior approval of Parliament. It is in pursuance of the provisions of Sections 2 and 3 of the 1947 Act that the draft Order now before the House has been laid. There is nothing unusual in the exercise of this power under the 1947 Act. Since 1947 it has been used ten times, including every year from 1961 onwards. What is unusual on this occasion is the background against which the Order is being made.

Your Lordships will know that the Government recently announced in another place their intention of introducing legislation early next Session to extend throughout the year—I will not say "summer time", which in this country would be a desirable but impossible objective—but the equivalent of summer time under some other name. I hope that your Lordships will not feel it necessary to debate the merits of that decision this afternoon, because there will be ample opportunity to do so when the Bill is brought before this House next Session. But I cannot pretend that the decision has not had some influence on the terms of the Order now presented to you, which is intended to apply during the interval next year before the new legislation comes into effect. Certainly it has influenced the proposal to introduce summer time next year, not towards the end of March, as has been customary, but on February 18; the object being, at least partly, to begin to accustom people to the permanent change to be made later. But even if that change had not been contemplated, the experience of extended summer time over the last six years, and its generally favourable reception by the public, would have prompted a further step in the direction which the Order takes.

The effect of the date chosen—Februrary 18—is broadly this: that on that date the time of sunrise will revert almost exactly to what it was in mid-winter under Greenwich Mean Time—in London that is just about eight o'clock. But at the other end of the day on February 18 the time of sunset, already an hour and a half later than in mid-winter, will become two and a half hours later, being thus advanced to 6.30 in the evening. This is a significant time because, as your Lordships will readily appreciate, it will put the evening rush hours in daylight because the extra hour will fall just at the time during weekdays when most people may be expected to have come home from work and be able to take full advantage of it. It is doubtless for this reason that the Royal Society for Prevention of Accidents—one of a large number of national bodies who favour the change—predicted last week that it will reduce the number of deaths and injuries on the roads.

Moreover, February 18 is the period of the year when the days draw out rapidly, so that whilst the disadvantages of the late sunrise will not be long felt, the advantages of the later sunset will accumulate rapidly. For these reasons—and irrespective of whatever views may beheld on the more permanent and far-reaching change to follow next Session—I hope that your Lordships will agree that, for pie purpose of the present Order, the date has been well chosen.

There is another unusual feature of this Order which will not, I am sure, have escaped your Lordships' attention. For the first time special provision is made for the Isle of Man, where summer time will not begin next year until April 7. This has been done at the request of the Isle of Man Government. The subject is one on which they would be competent to legislate for themselves, but it has been left, as a matter of convenience, to our legislation, with the power for special variation which the Order now invokes. The clear implication of this reservation is that the wishes of the Isle of Man Government should be respected unless there are strong reasons to the contrary.

My Lords, it is for the Government and people of the Isle of Man to judge what is in their own best interests. It may appear somewhat striking at first sight that for seven weeks of next year the Isle of Man will be observing a different time from both Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but the circumstances are in many ways different. The effects of the times of sunrise or sunset on urban and rural communities are not the same. In this regard the Isle of Man is almost entirely a rural community. It has few commercial or industrial contacts with the Continent of Europe, or indeed with Great Britain, except through the tourist trade, which does not properly get under way until Easter. Next year Easter falls during the weekend April 12–15, and no doubt the authorities of the Isle of Man had this in mind in choosing April 7 as the date when the change should become operative for them.

My Lords, there are no other features of this Order which call for special remark. It is, with the differences I have mentioned, the precise successor of many others which your Lordships have approved in previous years, and it may be the last. For those reasons I commend it to the House, and beg to move.

Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Summer Time Order 1967 be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on July 6.—(Lord Stonham.)

LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD

My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, for so clearly explaining the purpose and the working of this Order. I agree with him that this is not the time to discuss the merits of what is to follow next year in relation to the Government's intention to bring a Bill before Parliament which will give us summer time all the year round. Your Lordships will remember that last month we had a very interesting discussion of this matter on an Unstarred Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Raglan, when some of these issues were raised. Therefore, to-day we can simply direct our attention to the special features of this Order.

As the noble Lord has said, this is really a paving measure to prepare us for the permanent summer time which the Government intend to introduce. That is why we have this rather exceptional feature of summer time starting next year on February 18. I follow the noble Lord's argument that the Government's intention is to shift the time of daylight to the latest time in midwinter. It would normally be about seven o'clock in February, and this will make it eight o'clock—the same time as it begins to get light in the middle of winter. I recognise that this will have its benefits at the other end of the day in getting most people home in daylight, and it will have an influence on the reduction of accidents.

When we discussed this very important topic a month ago, I expressed the traditional objections and anxieties about work on the farms, and particularly about the problem of getting children to school in the villages, where many children will have to start out in the dark. It could be that when this change of time happens next February it will be very unpopular in those sections of our national life. I would ask the noble Lord to make special arrangements to find out the general reaction to this matter. I would ask him to see what best can be done when permanent summer time comes about to overcome the practical difficulties which will arise in the middle of winter with many village children having to leave home in the dark and getting to school in virtual darkness. In this "trial run" some lessons could be learnt which might be helpful for the future. I have no comment to make about the special arrangements in regard to the Isle of Man, and I am only sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Strange, is not in his place, for I am sure he would have welcomed this gesture to the sovereignty of that splendid island. I feel sure that when he hears about it he will welcome it. Despite the fact that I am anxious about considerations of the countryside, I feel that the general move towards having a common time with the Continent must be right. Therefore, as this is a preparation for that, I have much pleasure in supporting the Order.

3.35 p.m.

LORD AIREDALE

The noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, has entered a note of caution, which I feel ought to be noted. The rush-hour travellers who are going to benefit in the evenings from February 18, if this Order is approved, are also early morning travellers and early risers. This surely is very much a matter of winning on the swings and losing on the roundabouts. The early risers will be rising in total darkness from the middle of winter, they will reach the month of February when they will begin to see a noticeable increase in daylight in the early hours of the morning, but, just as they begin to see the benefits of the chance of rising in daylight, down will come the effect of this Order and they will be plunged back into what they were experiencing in the middle of December, back to rising in total darkness.

I do not understand the noble Lord when he tells us that this Order is to accustom people to the change to permanent summer time. Surely the way to accustom people to the change to permanent summer time would be to introduce summer time next year at about the time people expect it to be introduced—that is to say, five weeks later than this Order intends to introduce it—and then to leave summer time on permanently. Then, as the winter of 1968–69 draws on, people will gradually accustom themselves to the effects of permanent summer time. But to do it in this way by suddenly, on February 18, plunging people back into the dark early mornings which they had been experiencing in the middle of December and from which they will just be beginning to recover, seems to me the same sort of blunt instrument as the selective employment tax with which Her Majesty's Government seem to enjoy clobbering the electorate. I cannot think people will take very kindly to this Order. Would it not be better to introduce summer time next year at the customary time, leave it on permanently, and then people will gradually become accustomed to it, rather than to do it in this rather sudden way?

LORD FERRIER

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, that this is not an occasion for a general debate on summer time, but having heard what the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, has said, there are one or two points to which I should like to draw the attention of the House. The debate which we had on this subject a month or so ago on an Unstarred Question by the noble Lord, Lord Raglan, took place on a Monday. I feel certain that had it not been held on a Monday, a great many more Scottish voices would have been raised. I think in fact only passing reference was made to the situation in Scotland in that discussion. The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, said that this was a plan to accustom the public to the change when it came about. I should have been happier had he said that it was to enable the public to ascertain the effect of moving to this earlier time in peace time.

The problem to which the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, referred in relation to schoolchildren is important enough in this latitude, but in Northern Scotland it is a very serious matter. I have reason to believe that a number of parents' associations in the North of Scotland are taking up the matter very strongly, because daylight comes so very much later in those regions, right on into March. May I ask the noble Lord whether he could say in his reply to what extent the Secretary of State for Scotland has been taken along in this measure? May I also add that, certainly from the point of view of the North of Scotland, I feel that when we come to debate this matter there will be substantial reasons, which I hope will be elaborated by the experience in February next year, for criticising the proposals for summer time the whole year round.

LORD ROYLE

My Lords, while I am fully behind the Order, I am impressed by what the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, and the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, have said, particularly with regard to children going to school during the hours of darkness. This is something which we have to bear in mind very carefully, in the light of many nasty incidents affecting young children which have taken place in our country. What is going through my mind is whether the Ministry of Education have thought about the possibility of schools starting an hour later. The children would still be coming home in the daylight and yet they would be avoiding darkness when going to school. Perhaps not during the course of this Order, but certainly when we come to the consideration of the full Bill, this point might be something of which the Minister of Education could take note.

3.42 p.m.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I would again remind your Lordships that we are not debating the Bill, which is not before the House. We are dealing with an Order, almost the only purpose of which is to say that summer time next year shall start on February 18 instead of, as it undoubtedly otherwise would have done, round about March 20. So we are not dealing with some tremendous shock. We are not really throwing the people of Britain into Stygian gloom unexpectedly. It is a question of a little over four weeks earlier. I want to make that point, first of all.

Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, is right that we shall be winning on the swings and losing on the roundabouts—that is, some of us will. But it is the overwhelming view that vastly more people will win on the swings than will lose on the roundabouts. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary consulted, I think, some 88 national organisations, including of course the T.U.C., the C.B.I., and vast voluntary organisations such as the Women's Royal Voluntary Service, and their views show that there is a very great preponderance of opinion in favour of the change which we shall be discussing next year. I am only referring to it so as not to be accused of not replying to noble Lords on this point.

Of course, Scotland has a strong point. I shall be astonished—indeed, I shall no longer believe I am in your Lordships' House—when on any occasion I come here and find that Scotland does not have a strong and distinctive point. But, of course, on some things it can be overdone. I was very interested to read in the Observer, for example, on Sunday, that disapproval by farmers is strongest in Scotland, where in winter the sun rises later than in the South of England. Of course, this is a fact of which I was aware. The article goes on: Even so, the National Farmers' Union officials have adopted the Confucian principle of relaxing before the inevitable. The Scottish President, Mr. C. Young of Dundee, said, 'We do not like it and we do not see the need for it, but we will put up with it if it is in the national interest'. I thought that was a very fair statement and a very statesmanlike one of which we should all approve.

Not only has my right honourable friend consulted these organisations, but of course they have expressed very helpful views on points. For example, we learned from the W.R.V.S. that mothers welcome this change because they find that the greatest number of disasters affect their children when coming home at night, so they welcome the prospect that they will come home in daylight. The police tell us that, relatively, there are fewer accidents in the morning than in the rush-hours at night, because people are more relaxed; they are not rushing so much. All these things are to be taken into consideration.

We are not discussing legislation which the Government will be bringing forward next Session, but I assure your Lordships that all of these points are being considered. It is not for me to say what the local education authorities will do in this matter, but I think we can confidently expect them to be sensible. The suggestion which was made by my noble friend Lord Royle is the kind of thing which will be considered in rural communities where it is necessary. They are on the spot and they know the problems. It has always seemed extraordinary to me—certainly, farm workers as distinct from farmers no longer agree with it; they welcome this proposal—that everything must be done by the clock at a certain fixed time. It seems to me that something which has been fluid before, such as the hours of school children, can if necessary be fluid again. I hope that, without taking up too much of your Lordships' time, I have covered the points which were made, and that generally your Lordships will now welcome this Order.

On Question, Motion agreed to: the said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.