§ 2.52 p.m.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what information they have received from the police or other authorities concerned, about the problem created for ordinary road users by the transport by road of abnormal or wide loads; and whether they will make a statement.]
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, no general representations have been received from the police or from the local authority associations. The number of authorisations for movements in the largest class amount to some 300 a year. These are loads which cannot be subdivided or transported by other means, and are required for the development of heavy industry or for export. The police plan the timing and operation of the movements so as to cause the minimum of inconvenience to other roads users, but some delays unfortunately are inevitable.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask him to seek the views of the local authority associations and the chief constables? The experience of many of us is that this problem is a great deal more serious than the figure which the noble Lord quoted would lead us to think. Also, would he take it from me that the figure of one police district in the North of England for movements of awkward and indivisible loads notified to them in one recent year amounted to 8,000, an increase of 25 per cent. over the previous year? This problem is very serious and is in fact becoming more so.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord was good enough to refer earlier to this figure. He will agree that it was for a locality on the main route from the Midlands to the big port of 199 Glasgow, and therefore it is understandable that on that road there should be a heavy load factor. But as to the figure of 8,000, I doubt very much whether those loads come within the terms of the noble Lord's Question. My information, which I have no reason to doubt, is that the number of movements of abnormal loads (that is, loads which are in excess of 14 feet wide or 90 feet long, or 150 tons) through the country, which come within the responsibility of my right honourable friend the Minister, is some 300. The number of movements of loads slightly below those figures is some 3,500. It may well be that the applications which the noble Lord refers to are for the movement of fairly heavy loads, for which people have shown the courtesy, and I presume the very good sense, of approaching the police for movement orders.
§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORDMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that my noble friend is on a very good point here? Inevitably the number of these exceptionally big loads is growing and therefore causing greater and greater inconvenience. Would he ask his right honourable friend the Minister of Transport whether further research could be made into the possibility of moving these loads at night, with adequate illumination on the vehicle? This would surely cause much less inconvenience than moving by day, provided that the vehicles can be adequately illuminated.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, so far as my right honourable friend is concerned, her policy is to withhold approval. Where any of these loads could be subdivided or moved by sea, that is her policy. But, clearly, when we are dealing more with the field of generation plants, this equipment just cannot be subdivided. The suggestion about moving this equipment and heavy loads by night is, I think, a very attractive one; but the view of the police—and it is to the police that we must leave the judgment—is quite clearly that there is an added risk of serious accidents, and particularly of deaths, if heavy loads are moved at night. This is a question for the police, the professionals, who know their areas and know the circumstances, and it is far better to leave the matter to the police than for someone else to intervene from Whitehall.
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, would it not be the policy of Her Majesty's Government to provide the kind of roads that British industry needs, and does that not mean that many narrow places need to be made wider?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite correct, in that the sins and errors of past Governments now fall upon our own heads.
§ LORD AILWYNMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that whereas the length of these so-called awkward and indivisible loads causes great inconvenience, and whereas the weight may eventually cause damage to road surfaces, it is nevertheless the width of the animal that is more potentially dangerous to the motorist? Also, is he aware of the very considerable risk to the ordinary motorist on the narrow, winding lanes in Suffolk, for instance, when, on occasion, it is necessary to drive up the nearside bank, or perhaps into an invisible ditch, in order to avoid being squashed into pulp by these juggernauts taking up four-fifths of the road surface available?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, it is quite clear that the House is in sympathy with the noble Lord. I would agree with him as a motorist. But I would ask the noble Lord to consider this point. We are an industrial nation. We live and develop by our exports and our own internal development; and by the very nature of things this means that machinery and equipment becomes larger and has to be moved. And until we get the roads which previous Governments have failed to provide, this is a nuisance we shall have to put up with.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, in reference to the last reply, will the noble Lord bear in mind that it is not just huge, awkward loads which are on industrial or export business? The inconvenience to hundreds of other smaller vehicles, commercial and private, not excluding the Minister of State at the Scottish Office moving along the A.1, may easily outweigh the industrial advantage of the one vast, slow-moving piece of machinery. This is a question of balance.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right, and I shall look forward to his co-operation and 201 help in the next Session when we introduce legislation to co-ordinate the transport services, so that some of these loads can be moved off the road and on to the rail, where they belong.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIRMy Lords, is it not known that before these very long and wide structures are manufactured, the manufacturers themselves make a most careful survey, with the collaboration of the police, and that they are not manufactured on chance? It often means pulling down part of the walls of the works to get them out, but all this is very carefully surveyed.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Marquess is quite right.
§ LORD STRANGEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that yachts moving along the roads use the rule of the road and not the rule of the river, which is very confusing to all motorists?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am not sure whether the noble Lord is referring to his experience in the Isle of Man.