§ 2.41 p.m.
§ LORD MILVERTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any information about saboteurs being trained and organised in neighbouring countries for employment in Rhodesia; and whether they will protest to the Governments of any country concerned in such sabotage, and will consider reducing or stopping any grants in aid which they may be paying to any such country.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD BESWICK)My Lords, reports of this kind are always difficult to confirm, but if Her Majesty's Government felt it necessary to protest to any particular Government they would do so. It has frequently been made clear that Her Majesty's Government disapprove of violence, from whatever quarter it may come. Before aid is given to any country, all the factors are taken into account, but your Lordships will appreciate that development aid is a long-term project given to help the people of the countries concerned.
§ LORD MILVERTONMy Lords, while offering to the noble Lord my somewhat lukewarm thanks for that rather indefinite and impenitent (if I may use that adjective) reply, may I ask one further question arising out of it? Would not Her Majesty's Government agree that the British taxpayer is entitled to ask whether grants in aid are made, and continued, irrespective of whether or not the recipient country is violating the principles of international comity; and, in the circumstances indicated by me in my Question, is not such financial support our indirect support in itself of indefensible activities aimed at violent intervention in the domestic affairs of other countries? I fully appreciate the high principles enunciated in this case by Her Majesty's Government, but when their application becomes selective is that 194 not in itself a negation of their honesty, if I may use that word?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I think I can do no better than reply to the noble Lord by quoting from a Press release issued by the Zambian Government in June of last year, in which it was said:
Zambia does not support killings by anyone. Murder is condemned no matter whether it is perpetrated by rebels or freedom fighters. Critics should search their consciences and discover whether they are right in condemning effects and not the root causes of the situation.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, may I ask the Government whether they or any of their agents monitor the broadcasts in Zambia and Lusaka?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I cannot say whether there is a continuous monitoring of the services, but I have seen reports of some of the things that have been said. Certainly I deprecate some of the statements that have been issued over those services.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that all these attacks by saboteurs are foredoomed to failure—that as soon as the saboteurs cross the Zambesi they are rounded up by African troops and African tribes? Would Her Majesty's Government point out to President Kaunda the tragedy of the needless sacrifice of these valuable lives?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I have no doubt that what my noble friend says is, as always, quite right. I have no wish at all to appear to be supporting activities of this kind, but I must say this: that concentration camps and terrorist organisations are simply two sides of one coin.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, since it is well known that Tanzania is carrying out this kind of operation, and since from information recently given to the House she is in receipt of subvention of something of the order of £5 million a year, would not the noble Lord think it is appropriate that this should be reviewed, particularly in view of the fact that she has now broken off relations with Her Majesty's Government? Secondly, would not the noble Lord think, with regard to aid and subventions of this kind, that insulting remarks made by representatives 195 of these countries, as in the case of Zambia, should properly be a reason for reviewing the aid, generous as it is, that she is receiving from Her Majesty's Government?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the noble Lord might care first to consider that there is no capital aid at all now going from this country to Tanzania. In the second place, so far as any moral judgment of this kind is concerned, I wonder whether noble Lords, before they start issuing strictures upon any one African country, would consider the fact that if there are peoples who are deprived of full political freedom, inevitably some of them will turn to terrorist activities.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, could the noble Lord say at what date the subvention to Tanzania was withdrawn? My figures were quoted from those recently given in this House.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I cannot quote the date, but I will certainly send it to the noble Lord.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, may I ask the Government whether they have any information to show that it is the people of Rhodesia who have turned to terrorist activities? The impression that most of us have is that they were from Zambia. The noble Lord's Answer a moment ago gave the impression that it was the Rhodesian people, deprived of political activity, who had turned to terrorism.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, as I have said, reports of this kind are difficult to confirm, but I think most people are under the impression that the kind of activity now being criticised is being carried on in Rhodesia by Rhodesians who go out of the country for training and return to their own country for the purpose of expressing themselves in this way, because full political expression is denied them.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, do Her Majesty's Government receive any information as to how the aid which is granted to these countries is actually spent?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, having already said, as Tanzania has been mentioned, that there is no capital aid going 196 to that country at the present time, I would add that before aid is granted to any country the purposes of that aid are carefully considered together with that country, and there is a very close technical consideration of the use to which the aid is put.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, have the Government any information which justifies the statement that these sabotage efforts are carried out by Rhodesian nationals?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, if the noble and learned Viscount looks in Hansard to-morrow at what I said, he will see that I can go as far as that and no further.