§ 11.11 a.m.
§ LORD AMULREEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps are being taken to protect buildings listed as being of architectural or historical interest from possible damage by sonic booms.]
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, at the present time supersonic flight over this country is controlled so as not to result in bangs which are likely to cause damage to buildings. No special measures of protection are therefore required.
§ LORD AMULREEMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for his reply which, if I may say so, does not take us very far. I should like to put a supplementary question. Can the noble Lord say whether any particular steps are being taken to monitor these supersonic bangs, so that we can be sure that no long-distance damage can be done to towers, tall buildings and so on?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, my right honourable friends the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Minister of Public Building and Works are, obviously, both very concerned, and in particular with their responsibilities for listed buildings. I can assure the noble Lord that they have arranged for the position to be systematically watched. Any reports of damage will be carefully investigated.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I take it from the reply of the noble Lord that there is no possibility of damage from this series of tests to some of our greatest and oldest buildings; namely, the English cathedrals, their fabric and their glass. 1347 As this is a matter which, very naturally, is arousing a great deal of public interest and disquiet, can the noble Lord tell us when it is the Government's intention to publish the results of this series of tests? Is there a chance of some interim statement being made by the Government?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, obviously I cannot give an absolute guarantee, but the intention is that there should be no damage. Obviously it would be alarming and worrying if there were, and one of the purposes of the tests is to establish what risk there is, although we think the risk is very negligible. But it would, I am afraid, be unwise for me to give a guarantee. After all, windows can be damaged in all sorts of circumstances, even by strong gusts of wind. As regards the publication of the information, I understand that my right honourable friend the Minister of Technology is hoping to make a Statement before the Summer Adjournment, and I hope that it will contain the sort of information the noble Earl is seeking.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords—
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether it is true that buildings were damaged in Bristol, including windows being—
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lady? The Leader of the House is not here, and as the Deputy—
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)My Lords, I am here!
§ LORD SHACKLETONOh, then you adjudicate.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords—
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLDo not wear yourself out!
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDI will obey the last request.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, while my noble friend may not have had any report regarding damage to buildings, can he tell the House whether he has any reports regarding damage to carefully adjusted scientific instruments, 1348 or to the performance of surgeons doing delicate operations, such as heart operations?
§ LORD SHACKLETONNo, my Lords; and these are obviously very serious and weighty points. Certainly I have had no reports, but clearly, if such reports came in they would be grounds for serious alarm. Undoubtedly, if such reports did come in, they would be very seriously investigated. It is, of course, the object of the tests to see what hazards there are, but I will certainly note my noble friend's point.
I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Horsbrugh; it was rather my impression that questioners tended to alternate from each side of the Chamber. In any case I could not hear what she said. If the noble Lady would care to ask her supplementary question now, I should be very glad to try to answer it.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, can the Minister say whether it is true that damage was done to buildings in Bristol, including the breaking of windows?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I would ask the noble Lady to wait for the evaluation of these results. There have been various reports. There have been a number of complaints and some people who have not been complaining—although I do not know positively whether they were also the people who enjoyed the bangs.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, will my noble friend do his best to ensure that none of these sonic boom tests take place over the City of York, as York Minster is showing grave signs of weakness? Considerable cracks have developed in the fabric, and in view of the danger, and in order to preserve that wonderful structure, will my noble friend do his best to ensure that booms do not take place over the City of York?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, obviously there was concern, particularly about York Minster, but there are many other buildings some, perhaps, not of quite the same important nature. Obviously, these matters are being considered. There is a certain element of risk, but we have to settle what the consequences of supersonic flying are going to 1349 be rather than suddenly launch into them, possibly with much greater danger and much greater financial loss.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, a question which I asked the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, on July 4? It is this. In view of the fact that this is a small island, is it necessary to have supersonic booms over the land at all? Is it not possible for the boom to take place over the sea? Secondly, is the noble Lord aware that the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, informed the House that the transatlantic airliner booms would be over South Wales, and as a result there has been considerable anxiety in South Wales as to what this is going to mean?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I recently looked up what my noble friend Lord Beswick said. I do not recall him actually saying that the booms would be over South Wales as much as over—but we need not argue about that. On the general point, it is of course true that it would be possible to ensure that in respect of aircraft leaving Britain and flying to the United States of America there were no sonic booms over England. But this affects the whole question of the deployment and operation of these sonic aircraft throughout the world. If supersonic booms are not acceptable over this country, they are not likely to be acceptable over other countries. This is what we are seeking to establish. Clearly, if the tests were to show that the hazards, whether of a generalised kind, in respect of buildings, or more specific—and possibly more alarming—such as were mentioned by my noble friend Lady Summer-skill, are of a kind that cannot be accepted, there would have to be restriction on the use of these aircraft. But at this stage the last thing we want to do is to accept that such restriction will be necessary, and the purpose of these tests is to begin to establish what the position is. I hope that I have answered the noble Lord's point. It would be possible to confine these bangs to the sea so far as aircraft on the transatlantic 1350 route from this country is concerned, but one would, of course, hope for a wider operation.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for his courtesy in that reply and draw his attention to column 519 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of July 4, when the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, stated that the supersonic speed will not be reached until the aircraft is above "where the noble Lord was born"—in my case, that is South Wales, since Glamorgan is in South Wales. So in this case South Wales does come into it. May I also ask the noble Lord to have regard to the fact that there is no need to have universality in discomfort? If we could do without sonic booms, even though America has to have them, it would be an extremely good thing.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I think my noble friend said about where the noble Lord was born. I admit that he is unlikely to have been born in the Bristol Channel. That is the point where, on an ordinary flying planning basis, aircraft would reach supersonic speed. But an adjustment could be made. I have noted the noble Lord's later point. I think it raises difficult ethical and political questions.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, I have had some experience of this over South Wales. I remember some few short years ago hearing a series of bangs in South Wales which I could not account for by Ministers dropping bricks, so I just wondered.
§ LORD SHACKLETONI thank the noble Lord for his helpful contribution. He mentioned "some years ago". There have been supersonic booms for quite a while over this country, and there have been supersonic bangs regularly in large numbers over France for some time.
§ THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGHMy Lords, will the Government be careful to ensure that a large number of supersonic booms take place over any constituency that happens to be having a by-election?