§ 2.36 p.m.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have for extending the powers and usefulness of the transport users' consultative committees.]
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, before replying to this Question, may I, on behalf of all noble Lords, say how good it is to see the noble Lord, Lord Cones-ford, back in his usual place.
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
§ LORD SHEPHERDIn reply to the Question, my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport is giving careful consideration to the powers and duties of the transport users' consultative committees in connection with the Transport Bill which she hopes to introduce in the next Session. She has already revised the list of the bodies which she consults before appointing members of these committees, in order to secure a wider representation of all classes of rail users. The committees already have wide powers to consider and, where it appears desirable, make recommendations on any matter affecting the services and facilities provided by the nationalised transport Boards. They are being encouraged to ensure that users of these services are familiar with this aspect of their duties.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that most encouraging reply, may I ask him to ask his right honourable friend to try to ensure that these committees are used to improve relations between British Rail- 998 ways and their customers, rather than they should continue to be used, as has been happening, just in order to cushion the unpopular decisions which Ministers of Transport inevitably from time to time have to take?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I would not accept the noble Lord's description that these committees are a "cushion." They were set up under the 1962 Statute to undertake representations and make recommendations when the Railways Board, in their executive capacity, recommend a closure. I take the point of the noble Lord; and, as I intimated in my original Answer, we have widened the scope for representations to these committees by the inclusion of those bodies which might broadly be described as representing the man in the street and the common or garden railway user.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will please take it that I am not being critical of what he has said about the future? But will he impress upon his right honourable friend that the usefulness of these committees should be on a different basis from what has happened in the past? Whether he accepts it or not, the main function of these Committees in the past has been to cushion decisions—and I can see one of Lord Shepherd's noble friends on the Front Bench nodding.
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Which one?
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)My Lords, if the noble Lord is referring to me, I was nodding for a different reason.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, the noble Earl the Leader of the House is drawing attention to himself unnecessarily. Will the noble Lord please take it that in the past it has happened that these consultative committees have become active only when there has been a proposal, not to reduce the services on a line, but to close it; and that many of us in the country would like to see them given wide powers and being used to consider such things as development of transport in their areas, so that they have a positive and not a negative role?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I will take note of what the noble Lord has said. He may remember that I described to your Lordships what the Government have in mind in regard to the Regional Development Councils—more forward planning for the use of the railways.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, could my noble friend say, in regard to the new thinking which is taking place on the use of these committees, whether it will include an alteration in the way in which they are staffed? That is to say, instead of the personnel being paid officers of the Railways Board, they will be recruited from outside, with a different method being adopted in regard to paying the expenses of these transport users' consultative committees. I feel that that assistance alone would give an additional boost to the new way of thinking to which my noble friend referred.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I take the point that my noble friend has made and will draw it to my right honourable friend's attention.
LORD HAWKEMy Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that, in the event of proposed closures, the consultative committees cannot talk with meaning to the railways unless they are provided with figures? I believe the fact is that they are not provided with figures.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, this may be an aspect which the noble Lord should hear in mind when we come to consider the new Bill next Session.