HL Deb 04 July 1967 vol 284 cc501-8

3.10 p.m.

Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Baroness Phillips.)

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, on the Second Reading of the Bill and during the Committee stage I asked one or two questions of the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, and I was wondering whether she is now in a position to give me answers at this stage of the Bill; because if she is not, there are not going to be many other stages at which it will be possible to do so. First of all, I suggested that it would be much more convenient to have bilingual forms in many cases, though not in all cases, because of expense. There would be no point in having duplicate forms, one in English and One in Welsh, in areas where the Welsh or the English form, as the case may be, is rarely going to be applied for. The noble Baroness said that she would be good enough to look at that point.

Then I raised the question of national identity. I specified a number of cases in which the national identity of Wales is being steadily eroded. I suggested to her that it is not much good having a Welsh Language Bill if in a few years' time there will be no Wales in which to speak the language. One instance which I did not give at that time but should have done, as it is a very bad example indeed, is the present intention of the Government to destroy the Welsh Brigade of Infantry.

LORD SHEPHERD

Oh, No!

LORD OGMORE

Oh, yes. It is all very well for Lord Shepherd to say that. It is exactly the sort of complaint I am making of this Government. I do not want the Chief Whip to give me instructions in this House. This is not the House of Commons. The point is that the three regiments of Wales are being put into an administrative division with two English brigades; and in future, if this plan goes through, basic training will be carried out in divisional depots; there will be divisional cap badges; and officers will be gazetted and soldiers will be enlisted into the division as a whole. This is causing a great deal of dissatisfaction among those who are at present serving in, or who have served in, the three regiments of Wales. It is an instance of what I am now saying: that one cannot erode the national identity of a nation and get away with it without a great deal of frustration and upset being caused.

The third matter I wish to raise relates to Monmouthshire. The noble Baroness on Second Reading said that from a legal point of view Monmouthshire is in England. I challenged this at the time, and she was good enough to send me a note from which it appears that there has never been any legislative authority for that statement; that in fact there is no proof that Monmouthshire is in England; and I am sure that no true Welshman would for one moment agree to the proposition that it is. I must say that I am very much surprised that the new Welsh Office, with for the first time a Secretary of State for Wales in the Cabinet, should come up with this proposition—a proposition which has never before been advanced by any Government, so far as I am aware; and certainly has never before been advanced by any true Welshman. With those few questions to the Minister, I should like to say that I have no objection to the Bill and I wish it well.

LORD MERTHYR

My Lords, if I understand the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, correctly, it is that when a form has to be printed for use in Wales it shall be printed in both languages, whatever form it is and in whatever part of Wales it is to be used. I hope I have understood it correctly. If that is so, it will result in a tremendous waste of printing and paper. I take the noble Lord's point that one form is better than two, but we must bear in mind that in most parts of Wales only one form will be necessary. The part in which I myself live is a part where only English is spoken, and the Welsh version will almost never be called for or demanded by anybody. Therefore, if every form is printed double the length that it might have been it will be extremely wasteful. Although I understand the noble Lord's point about two forms, it would be more economical to have two forms and to have the second for use only when demanded.

3.15 p.m.

LORD ARWYN

My Lords, I missed an opportunity on Second Reading of saying a few words on this Bill, but I was given permission to say on this occasion what I would have said then. In the opening speech on the Second Reading of this Bill my noble friend Lady Phillips said that the provisions of the Bill embodied a sincere attempt to strengthen and dignify the status of the Welsh language, while at the same time respecting the rights of those who do not speak it. I am enthusiastic about the Bill, and wish to declare my support not only for the Bill but also for any measure which can add to the self-respect of the Welsh people.

The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, in his speech on Second Reading referred to the need to maintain the national identity of Wales and said that this national identity has been constantly eroded by successive Governments. Any erosion of identity in history has produced active resentment. Nations, like persons, soon wither without self-respect—and Wales is a nation. I rejoice in the fact that a Labour Government is aware of this danger. Again, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, that during the lifetime of the youngest Member of this House we shall see a domestic Parliament for Wales. Why should we be inferior to the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Northern Ireland in this respect? This need for a separate identity is growing, however distasteful it may be to departmental administrations, and it will go on. These nationalistic movements are not going to dry up because they offend the pundits of Whitehall.

I live in Cornwall, and there also is a growing resentment and consciousness of neglect which can no longer be shrugged off as an emotional spasm by the Celts of Cornwall. The movement called Mebyon Kernow (Sons of Cornwall) is following the same pattern as Plaid Cymru. Then again, in Cornwall there is a movement to revive the Cornish language, which is quite easy for any Welsh-speaking Welshman to learn. I should not be surprised to hear of its being taught as an ordinary subject in Cornish schools in the foreseeable future, and not as a special subject. The Cornish are Celts, not English.

There is nothing more potent than language to identify and preserve a nation, and the easiest way to maintain status and self-respect is to speak that language on every possible occasion. Any form of suppression is bound to breed resentment, especially among a proud people. There comes a time when resentment grows to such an extent that molehills become mountains, and what might otherwise be a slight inconvenience is magnified out of all proportion. In such circumstances, extremism flourishes with each opportunity. Many of your Lordships are quite aware of these conditions in industry. Once a situation boils over it takes a long time to settle down again, and rarely does it settle down under the same terms as before.

I was very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for whom I have the greatest respect, withdrew his Amendment. The sound reasons for such an Amendment were obvious. The better way is to recruit more Welsh-speaking magistrates and officials as quickly as possible. I should like to endorse what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Borth-y-Gest, said when he referred to the long suppression of the use of Welsh. But we have too much of a sense of humour and dignity to harbour grievances.

We have learned not to be thin-skinned, and to be tolerant of English idiosyncracies. For instance, take that doggerel: Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief, The first verse is an accusation based on hearsay, and concerns the alleged disappearance of a mythical leg of beef. It is the second verse which really offends and exposes a character defect and which is a libel on all fair-minded Englishmen. It says: I went to Taffy's house And Taffy was in bed. I up with a big stick And hit him on the head. There was no trial by jury, no evidence of the finding of the criminal leg of beef in Taffy's house to justify bludgeoning a sleepy Welshman incapable of defending himself. Never in the course of the last fifty years have I heard that second verse quoted by an Englishman. He is ashamed of it; it offends his sense of fair play, and it is a denial of English law and justice. This doggerel was probably the result of an emotional spasm.

But that which we find in the Oxford Dictionary under the heading of "Welsh (1)" must be taken more seriously. The word "Welsh (1)" has a sinister meaning; it means to "decamp without paying". It is followed by another word "Welsher". There is no mention of the fact that a bookie called Welsh was the original cause of this libel. There is no evidence that he was Welsh, and his name might quite possibly have been Walsh. "Welsh (2)" takes second place and refers, in brackets, to the Welsh as people. Then follows some eighteen lines, all about Welsh dressers, Welsh flannel, Welsh Guards, rabbits, mutton and so on. I doubt whether any Welshman has ever written to the publishers of the Oxford Dictionary to object to this auto-suggestive system of priorities. Our sense of humour produces wide tolerance, even when we have to take second place in order to immortalise the deplorable conduct of an English bookie called Welsh.

In latter years, the English sense of fair play began to operate, perhaps subconsciously, and the virtues of the Welsh family of Jones were acclaimed. So much so that the high standards of the Joneses have become almost world-wide. I need not enlarge on that, for more than one distinguished member of the Jones family is a Member of your Lordships' House, for all of whom I have the greatest respect, especially my noble friend Lord Maelor.

There is one more relevant observation which I should like to make. The noble Lord, Lord Boston, stated that he had always been told that the people of North Wales cannot understand the people of South Wales, and he wondered whether there would be any difficulty in translation. I should like to assure him, unless he has already been assured by my noble friend Lady Phillips, that so far as I know—and I should like to be corrected if I am wrong—there is only one word in common use which is different. At one time I was the only Welsh-speaking South Walian in a North Wales battalion—the 16th Royal Welch Fusiliers—and I found only one difference. That was the North Walian word rwan, which is Welsh for the English word "now", and for which the South Walians say nawr. Strangely enough, it is rwan and nawr: one is the reverse of the other in spelling. Both words are really abbreviations, so there is little difference except for the local expressions which one finds everywhere.

The big difference is in accent. The Northerners, as in every country, explode their consonants and gutteralise their vowels. In the South we are gentler. We drawl and slur, but I think your Lordships would agree that we make up for it at Twickenham, where the use of the Welsh language can be most effective, especially the expletive part of it, in tight scrums. So much so that I am quite sure many English captains have regretted the fact that their school curriculum did not include the learning of Welsh expletives. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Wakefield of Kendal, is not here as I am sure he would confirm what I am saying.

In a couple of days I shall be on my way to New South Wales, where I hope to take a copy of this Bill to show to the Welsh Cwymrodorian Society. Who knows? Welsh may one day—and perhaps in our time—be one of the official languages of the Australian Parliament.

3.25 p.m.

LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR

My Lords, perhaps a former Minister for Welsh Affairs may be allowed to say one or two words in the closing stages of this Bill. I certainly shall not seek to take up any of the points raised by the noble Lord who has just spoken, though as he mentioned Twickenham I should just like to put on record that neither at Cardiff Arms Park nor at Twickenham was Wales ever defeated while I was watching. At any rate, I was a mascot in one direction.

But my experience as Minister for Welsh Affairs convinced me wholly that the Welsh language and its survival were of importance, not only to Wales but to Britain. It would be a tragedy if this ancient tongue were to fall out of use, and to cease to be both a written and a spoken language. I am glad to know that a number of important Welsh-speaking friends of all Parties felt that I played some part in helping what they regarded as the essential cause of assisting the continuance and growth of the Welsh language. It was my successor, Sir Keith Joseph, who set up the Hughes Parry Committee, and though I would not go all the way with that Committee on some matters, it was the Report of that Committee which gave rise to this Bill. I think that though we can laugh at the Welsh, and laugh with the Welsh, and though we know very well that there are some extremists on both sides in this controversy who are sometimes a bit of a nuisance, nevertheless the main cause which this Bill will serve is a wholly sound one and I am glad to have my opportunity of offering these further words of welcome to it.

LORD MAELOR

My Lords, before the noble Baroness speaks, perhaps I should just translate the word used by my noble friend Lord Arwyn. He said that in South Wales they used the word nawr, whereas in North Wales, where I dwell, we say rwan. But I must point out to him that there is a technical difference. Nawr means "now", whereas rwan means "this hour". So we may say, "I am not going to have tea now, but I am going to have it this hour."

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, I am grateful to those noble Lords who have once more welcomed this Bill. I would say at once to my noble friend Lord Arwyn that the Title to the Bill states that it is "to make further provision with respect to the Welsh language", and I feel that Her Majesty's Government are to be congratulated on having introduced it at this time. I would also say to him—and perhaps I have some advantage here in having an English father and an Irish mother—that it has seemed to me, at any rate over the last few years, that not only have the Welsh learned not to be thin-skinned, but the English have also learned not to be thin-skinned as we are constantly reminded of very ancient battles which one would hope were buried in history.

As regards the word that has been quoted, I should not like to enter into any battle between the North and the South, and I hope that my noble friend Lord Maelor has satisfactorily explained the difference to your Lordships. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, for welcoming this Bill. At the Second Reading, as he probably read, I paid tribute to the work of the Hughes Parry Committee, and I should like to be associated with the fact that this was initiated when it was.

The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, put three questions to me during the Second Reading debate. He asked me about the position of cheques, and I gave him a reply to that. Then he asked me about the position of Monmouth. I am sorry he does not like my reply to that, but, again, that appears to be something historical which would need rather more than a discussion in your Lordships' House to change. On the question of bilingual forms, a reply will be coming to the noble Lord, but I had at least seven or eight letters to write, as a result of the discussions on this Bill, and they have been very carefully phrased. So I hope he will accept from me that he will receive a reply on the question of bilingual forms. So far as the question of the Infantry is concerned, the noble Lord will appreciate that he did not actually raise that point on Second Reading, nor give me notice, so I cannot give him a direct reply now. But I think I am correct in saying that this is the subject of one of the Motions set down on the Order Paper, and I believe that at a later date we shall have the opportunity of discussing it.

Having said that, I hope that it can now be said that this Bill is generally welcomed from all sides. It is a recognition of the feeling of Her Majesty's Government for the status of the Welsh language, of Wales and of the Welsh people; and I hope your Lordships will now give it a third reading.

On Question, Bill read 3a.

An Amendment (privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.