§ 3.45 p.m.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD BESWICK)My Lords, with permission I should like to repeat a Statement made by my honourable friend the Minister of State, Ministry of Technology, in another place. The Statement is as follows:
"Before undertaking any major programme of sonic bang tests it would be desirable to have a relatively small preliminary exercise. It has been decided that during the month of July, Lightning aircraft from the Ministry of Technology's Aeroplane and Armament Establishment at Boscombe Down should be permitted to fly supersonically over various parts of Southern England in such a way as to create sonic bangs at intensities known from previous experience to be well below those likely to cause damage. The flights will be confined to the hours of daytime, and will be monitored by technicians from the Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough."
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for repeating this Statement. I think this is clearly an important matter from the points of view of the airline operators and the aircraft producers in view of our important Anglo-French Concord programme—and, not least, from the point of view of the deafened or to-be-deafened general public. Since the Americans conducted their major series of tests three years ago, and the Concord programme is at least three years ahead of the American supersonic transport programme, it is a little surprising that tests of this nature have not been conducted earlier. But that is by the way.
May I ask one or two questions of the noble Lord? I notice that the preliminary tests are being confined to the South of England. Being an inhabitant of the South myself, and one who lives close to Boscombe Down, I am wondering 515 why these pleasures are to be confined entirely to the inhabitants of the South of England. Can the noble Lord also tell us—and again I must confess a possible potential interest—what arrangements are to be made for compensation to householders? I notice that the tests are to be at an intensity lower than that likely to cause damage; but accidents are likely to occur. More important, can the noble Lord tell us anything about the major series of tests?—when they are likely to be held and on what sort of scale. Finally, in view of the fact that the Concord is an Anglo-French programme, can he tell us what arrangements are being made to "spread the load" in terms of finance and inconvenience with our partners in this project? Are any such arrangements contemplated?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, as far as the first question is concerned, these are preliminary tests. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that, later on, the inhabitants of other territories to the north of where the noble Earl lives may have the pleasures that he is about to experience. Moreover, I might also point out that "Operation Westminster", at which I believe he was not an observer, was held in the Midlands. As the South is a part of England, I can see no reason why the next series of tests should not be conducted there. As far as compensation is concerned, claims should be made to the Claims Commission at the Ministry of Defence, which is a body already experienced in this matter, where these claims will be promptly considered.
So far as other major tests are concerned, I am not able to say anything about them. It will depend partly on the results of the tests that are about to take place. I would also say that, although it is true that the Americans have had a series of tests over Oklahoma City, we have had the benefit of the results of those tests; the French have already had certain tests and again we have had the benefit of the results of those tests. We are about to have joint consultation with the Americans and the French in which we shall all pool our experience, and no doubt from that conference, which will take place in the very near future, further decisions will be made about possible other tests in this country.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, the noble Lord said that if any claims for damage are made those claims might be considered. Will he not go a little further than that? Is it not the case that some of these sonic bangs have caused damage? Will not the Government admit liability for full compensation, should it be established that any of these tests causes damage?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I certainly used the words "will be considered". I am sure the noble Viscount, with his extreme care in the choice of words in this matter, would not have wished me to say that the claims will be met. They will be considered. Of course, they will be considered sympathetically; all the claims that have already been made have, I understand, resulted in a satisfactory agreement with the complainant. As a matter of interest, I gathered the amount of compensation paid has averaged between £400 and £600 a year, in the past two or three years, so we are not dealing with very large sums.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, when the Statement says that these tests are not likely to cause damage, I take it that that means they are not likely to cause damage to property. There may be a considerable amount of damage to people's amenities, especially those of the elderly and young children, and also to animals. What is the purpose of these various experiments? After all, this is a comparatively small group of Islands. The transatlantic airliners will come in from the Atlantic and will be below the sonic level before they reach our shores. Would it not be best to look at the possibilities of not having sonic booms at all in this country?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. When I said that the tests were not expected to result in any damage, I was referring to physical damage. We already have knowledge which enables us to estimate the sort of result from supersonic bangs on glass, or structures. These tests, with Lightning aircraft, are not expected to result in pressures above 1 lb. to 1½ lb. per square foot and should not do any appreciable physical damage. The primary purpose of these tests is to get the reaction from people to the noise which ensues, and the reason why no advance notice is being 517 given, beyond the general expression "Southern England", is that we do not wish to alert people to the fact that these tests are being held over their particular houses and thereby give rise to damage in the imagination only. What the results will be is not known, but it will be interesting to see how people do react when they have had no advance warning. Interestingly enough, the first claim has already come in before the tests have started.
LORD REAMy Lords, may I join with the Deputy Leader of the Opposition in thanking the noble Lord for the Statement. One particular phrase struck me which I think will give great satisfaction; that is, that the tests will be carried out during daylight. May I ask the noble Lord whether he could so arrange it that not only will the tests be carried out during daylight, but the actual day and times will be announced in the Press, or otherwise, so that people may be prepared, and not sent into perturbation and fear by unexpected noise? This is rather the reverse of what he has been saying, but I think there are two sides to the question.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right: if times were announced it would contradict what I said was the primary objective of these tests, which is to find out the reactions of people who have not been alerted to the fact that tests are about to take place. As to the possibilities of testing outside of daylight hours, in my humble personal judgment I think that such tests would be most useful, and probably more valuable than these tests. The possibility of going on to night-time tests is one which will be considered after results of these tests are known.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, having listened to the amazing statement that these tests are being held only in order to test the reactions of the British, as compared to the French, am I to understand that what the noble Lord has in mind is that the British, being more phlegmatic than the French, will not make the same protests? Is that all there is in it?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am sure the noble Baroness is very near the truth. We are a nation of people accus- 518 tomed to getting used to inconveniences. The fact of the matter is that there have been complaints, and there was a complaint just now from the noble Earl, that although there have been tests in other countries we have not had tests in this country. Therefore, the kind of complaints we have had so far have been from people who have not had the opportunity actually to observe or experience the inconvenience which follows this kind of noise. The fact that these tests are being held will, I hope, in the future enable the discussion which has taken place in this country to be carried on with rather more knowledge at our disposal than was hitherto the case.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, if the tests are to establish the reaction of the public, to whom should the public complain if they do not like these tests? Do they write to the noble Lord?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I should have thought that one of the best means of having a complaint ventilated would be to write to the noble Viscount. Claims of damage should be sent to the Ministry of Defence. I have no doubt that there will be letters to newspapers; I have no doubt there will be letters to Members of Parliament concerned, and indeed there are many ways and means in this country of having a public discussion. The value of these tests is that it will enable public discussion to take place with certain ascertainable facts at our disposal.
§ LORD ROWLEYMy Lords, may I inquire whether these tests are restricted to ascertaining the effect upon the public, or are they also with a view to ascertaining the minimum sonic boom which will be possible by, for example, reducing to a minimum the speed of the aircraft when coming in from its flight?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, no. The amount of the actual physical effect of supersonic bangs is known. It can be measured, although it is a variable factor. It varies, among other things, according to the climatic conditions of the day, but generally the physical effects are something which it is possible to measure. What we do not know is exactly how human beings will react to this, and that is the primary reason for these tests.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for the further information which he has given us in reply to supplementary inquiries, may I ask whether arrangements could be made to produce the results of these tests in a comprehensible form, and make them available to us? It occurs to me that this could be important to the new Select Committee on Science and Technology—they could very well interest themselves in that.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, certainly that seems a very useful suggestion. I will see that it is considered.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, if reactions to the tests are bad—in other words, if they are found to be of great harm to people's nerves or property, either in the preliminary or a later test—is there a possibility of there being no sonic booms over this country by civil aircraft? That is the question I asked earlier, but the noble Lord has not yet answered it.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, so far as sonic booms are concerned, from a Concord airliner for example, on a normal service flight from London Airport, my understanding is that supersonic speed is not reached until the aircraft is about where the noble Lord was born—that is, South Wales. But it will not then have obtained the cruising speed, so the effect of sonic booms in this country will be limited. So far as the general question is concerned about what will happen if these tests prove that there is a violent public reaction, I hope the noble Lord will agree that both he and I were brought up in our early Parliamentary days not to ask hypothetical questions. I suggest we leave that question until the results of the tests are known.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I live in the South and like the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, have a special interest in this Statement. I have taken special interest this afternoon, and I am sure the House shares that interest. We have a great deal of business, and I wonder whether we could now proceed with our Order Paper.