HL Deb 30 January 1967 vol 279 cc754-7

2.56 p.m.

VISCOUNT MERSEY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are prepared to recommend that a small charge be made for entrance to the National Gallery on one or two days a week in order to place additional funds in the hands of the Trustees so that—

  1. (a) they may be enabled to purchase additional works of art; and
  2. (b) they may be able to improve the security of those already in their care.]

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, the answer is, No.

VISCOUNT MERSEY

My Lords, may I point out—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No.

VISCOUNT MERSEY

—that nearly every public gallery—

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, I am very sorry to interrupt. It may sound like a technicality, but I do not think the opening, "May I point out" is admissible in this House.

VISCOUNT MERSEY

My Lords, I take the noble Earl's point. May I ask the noble Baroness whether she is aware that nearly every public gallery in Europe now makes some charge, and that in the United States of America, where the galleries are for the most part still free, they are beginning to find that they are having to limit the number of people who visit at any moment, owing to the fact that they cannot guarantee against the security risks? In view of what I have said, does the noble Baroness not think that sooner or later some form of control should be imposed in this country?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, the points raised by the noble Viscount have been considered at different times, as he will probably be aware. In fact, he will probably recall that there was a charge for admission to this Gallery before the war. The comparable figure, which will be of interest to him, is for the year 1937, which was a typical year. It shows that when admission was free the average attendance was 2,000, but when admission was by charge the number dropped to 500. This drop has weighed, rather, when consideration has been given to this proposal by the Government.

On the other point raised by the noble Viscount, I think he will be interested to know that of course the proceeds from any charge would not go to the trustees but would, in fact, be payable to the Exchequer as an appropriation in aid.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, arising out of the reply given by the noble Baroness, would the Government not agree that the figures from before the war are not really comparable, since there was a very much lower purchasing power in those days? Also, would they not investigate some of the Continental galleries, because, for example, the Louvre, which has a fairly high admission charge, is usually crowded every day?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, I will convey to my right honourable friend the views expressed by the noble Lord. I understand that this is under review at all times. I cannot reply to-day on how far the Government have considered the European galleries, but I will let the noble Lord know further, if he wishes, in writing.

LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD

My Lords, may I put a further point to the noble Baroness?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No.

LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD

My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she will consider the attendance figures at the Royal Academy where, although the entrance charge is pretty stiff, the attendance, when there is a particularly attractive exhibition, is very heavy indeed? There is no doubt at all that if an exhibition is worth seeing a charge does not keep the public away. Also, is the noble Baroness aware that, with the wonderful pictures which there are in the National Gallery, if the authorities would sometimes put on a special show they would have no difficulty in securing a very good attendance even with a charge for admission?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, I will convey this point to my right honourable friend. I think the official statement was to the effect that the Government are satisfied that the disadvantages which would come from a charge of this kind would outweigh the advantages.

BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lady whether it is not possible that, if a charge were made and the money had to go to the Exchequer, the Exchequer might make a larger grant to the National Gallery for the purposes of the pictures?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

My Lords, this is always a possibility, but I think the noble Lady will appreciate that it is something as to which I cannot, of course, give any promise.

LORD JESSEL

When the noble Lady referred to an attendance of 2,000 in 1937, she did not say whether it was per day, per week or per year. Could she tell us?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

I apologise for that, my Lords. It was, of course, per day.

LORD SILKIN

Is the noble Lady aware that things have changed since 1937?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

The answer to that, my Lords, is, Yes.

LORD MOYNIHAN

Will the noble Lady also bear in mind that many of us believe that in no circumstances should any charge be made for entry into any cultural or artistic gallery in this country? There are many of us who are extremely proud of the fact that this is the only country which does not make such a charge. Will the noble Lady also bear that in mind?

BARONESS PHILLIPS

Yes, my Lords. I am grateful to the noble Lord for those words.

LORD SOMERS

In view of that last question, would the noble Baroness also bear in mind that artists have to earn their living?