§ 2.37 p.m.
§ LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEUMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will initiate discussions with the appropriate authorities with a view to utilising eventually part of the St. Pancras Station site as a permanent museum to display the historic transport relics at present housed at Clapham, Swindon and York.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD SHEPHERD)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government feel that the balance of advantage as between St. Pancras and York as a site for a National Transport Museum lies with the latter. York was 1434 recommended by the Joint Steering Group in the Annex to the White Paper Railway Policy (Cmnd.3439). The Proposed new museum at York will be well fitted to house a national transport collection.
§ LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEUMy Lords, in expressing disappointment with the Government's Answer, may I ask whether the noble Lord would not agree that a museum sited in London would be a much greater draw as a tourist attraction, and would also earn more overseas currency, than a museum in York? May I also say that an historic railway site like St. Pancras would be a splendid place to have the museum and would prevent the cutting down of a good many of the exhibits, as will be the case if the York site is adopted?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I recognise that whatever decision had been taken it would, in one way or another, have been a disappointment to collectors. But the Government feel that, quite apart from the report which they have accepted, the circumstances in St. Pancras really preclude this idea. In the first instance, St. Pancras would not be available for some considerable time—for at least five years—and there would be some practical difficulties, particularly in regard to lighting and heating, and perhaps in regard to restrictions imposed by the platforms. Taking all things into account, it was felt that York provided the best place for these railway relics to be available to the public.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, would the museum include among its historic relics those who are now responsible for running the Southern Region?
§ LORD PEDDIEMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that people in the North welcome the decision of Her Majesty's Government, and consider the placing of the museum at York as a just and due recognition of the contribution made by the people in the North to the development of British Rail?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I think the House will agree that York has had a very close relationship with British Rail, despite what the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, feels about it.
§ LORD ROBERTSON OF OAKRIDGEMy Lords, does the Minister feel that it is fair to compare a museum at York with a museum at St. Pancras, since a museum at York would surely hold only a tiny part of the exhibits which are at present in existence and which would be housed in better facilities if they were at St. Pancras?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I do not have information as to the size of the museum which will be available in York, but I have no reason to believe that it will not be adequate for a proper representation. In regard to St. Pancras, it is of course a very valuable site, and we have taken this factor into account in arriving at our decision, particularly in regard to considerations related to housing and open development in London.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, does this decision mean that all the exhibits now at Clapham, including locomotives through the whole range, and the old Royal trains, are all to be removed to York?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the report to which I have referred recommended that the exhibits at Clapham and the other railway exhibits should all be brought together, and the decision was taken to bring them all together in York.