§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what restrictions, if any, there are on the use, by British citizens residing in Rhodesia, of money which they have in Great Britain to pay their expenses when visiting this country.]
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, residents of Rhodesia who visit this country, whether or not they are British citizens, are allowed access to their sterling assets to meet their living expenses here and those of their families. There is no limitation on such drawings from funds in an ordinary Rhodesian sterling account. If the assets are on a suspense account the amount that may be drawn for this purpose is limited to £10 per person per week. Suspense accounts are those in which are placed sums due to residents of Rhodesia but in general withheld from them under the current sanctions policy—for example, dividends on United Kingdom securities. Drawing on such funds is only permitted exceptionally, in order to relieve severe hardship.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, would the noble Lord say what, in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, this country gains as a result of this restrictive imposition, which places an obstacle in the way of British citizens living in Rhodesia visiting this country, and creates feelings of deep resentment among those who still regard this country 1356 —and there are many of them—as home, and also weakens their desire for the continuation of these ties which hitherto have bound us together?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I agree with 80 per cent, of what the noble Lord says. I quite appreciate that there is deep resentment, and I suggest to the noble Lord that the best way to express that resentment is by bringing pressure to bear on Rhodesia's present régime to return to a constitutional Government.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, does the noble Lord really consider that in this country to-day £10 a week is adequate to keep anyone in the conditions such as he expects to receive in his own home?
§ LORD BESWICKNo, not necessarily. But then again, a resident of Rhodesia who feels that £10 is insufficient can buy sterling from a bank in Rhodesia with Rhodesian pounds.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEI would say to the noble Lord—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, I would say to the noble Lord—
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, it is all right. I will deal with the Question. I am going to ask a question, and if the noble Earl would only contain himself at times it would be much better for dealing with the business of the House. What I want to say is this. I hold in my hands and I am asking the noble Lord whether this is a fact or not—a letter from a bank which says that the limit which is allowed is £10.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)Will the noble Lord give way or not?
§ LORD STRATHCLYDENo, I will not give way. I am asking the question. I have asked it of the noble Lord sitting on the right of the Leader of the House. Having asked my question, I will wait for his reply.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDThere was no question.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, with all the good will in the world, I do not quite understand the question now being put to me.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, what I put to the noble Lord was whether he is aware of the fact that I hold in my hand a letter from the bank which says that they are allowed to advance only £10 a week for a person from Rhodesia visiting this country from his own funds in the bank here.
§ LORD BESWICKYes, my Lords; I am aware that the noble Lord has a document in his hand, and it appears to bear out what I have already said; namely, that if the person has a sterling account in this country he can draw from it to meet his full living expenses. If, however, there is only a suspense account he can draw only up to £10 per week. If the noble Lord says that in some cases this would involve hardship, I say to him, in all sincerity, that the purpose of sanctions is inevitably to impose anything up to hardship in order to bring home to the people of Rhodesia that it is essential to get back to constitutional rule.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, is the noble Lord really saying that a British woman who has left money in this country before she has gone to reside with her husband in Rhodesia is to be deprived of the use of her own money when she comes back here, because it is thought that a British woman could influence opinion in Rhodesia to return to lawful rule—something which I should desire as much as anyone else? Is this not pressing sanctions far too far?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I really do not believe that the noble and learned Viscount has done me the courtesy of listening to what I have just said.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEI did.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, taking that particular case, of a woman who, as the noble Viscount says, has money in this country and then goes to marry someone in Rhodesia, if that money is hers, and was here before I.D.I., she is able to draw upon it to meet her full living expenses while here.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, will the noble Lord look at that again because that woman's money has been 1358 placed in a suspense account, and I thought he said that in a suspense account it could not be drawn upon.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, it is difficult, across the Floor of the House, to deal with a particular case. If the noble Viscount will let me have details I will look into it. But I am saying that if we are dealing with a person who has accumulated a sum of money in this country and then gone out to Rhodesia, that amount, if it had been accumulated before I.D.I., would be in a sterling account, and she could draw upon it to meet her full living expenses.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, the question I put to the noble Lord was: if she left money here in an account, would she be able to draw on it? Where money is left here, would it be placed in a suspense account?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I really think that it would be better to have full details. If that money was here prior to I.D.I. it would be in a sterling account and she could draw from it.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, in view of the attitude taken by the noble Lord (I am not thinking of myself but of the Office of Leader of the House), may I say that we in this House depend on a degree of informal cooperation, and I think that if a noble Lord will not give way to the Leader of the House it is bound to make life here most difficult.
THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, does not this Answer, in effect, make any inhabitant of Rhodesia, regardless of his or her views, a sort of pariah in this country? Is this likely to bring them to closer co-operation, for which we all hope?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am answering on behalf of the Treasury a particular Question about the transfer of certain moneys. If the noble Earl wishes to widen this into a debate on sanctions, I must say that I think it would be better done on another occasion.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, may I ask the Government a perfectly simple question on the situation? Supposing I happen to be living in Rhodesia and have funds here, and I have a debt here to a British citizen, and supposing I write a 1359 cheque on my funds here in favour of that citizen will that cheque be met or will it be barred by Government regulation?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, a hypothetical question is always a difficult one to answer, and I feel that I ought not to answer that one.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, will Her Majesty's Government even begin to realise that the policy they have been pursuing vis-à-vis Rhodesia is only making support for the Smith régime even more than it was at the outset of U.D.I.? When are they going to realise that fact and abandon this policy which is simply causing hatred to mount in Rhodesia against this country?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I would repeat what I have said before in this House: that if only the noble Lord and his noble friends would bring to bear on the Smith régime half the pressure which they try to bring to bear on the Government of this country, we should probably achieve some results.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYThat shows that the noble Lord does not understand the position at all.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, is the effect of what the noble Lord has said that a British citizen, a person of British nationality, who in certain circumstances wishes to draw her own money from a British bank can be forbidden to do so?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I really think that the noble Marquess should look at what I have said. If, when he has read what I have said, there is any point of clarification that I can make, I shall be very happy to pursue it with him further.