§ 3.10 p.m.
§ LORD FOLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that the instruction to pilots taking off from London Airport and other airfields to reduce power because of the sound nuisance to residents in the vicinity of these airfields constitutes a grave risk of safety generally; and whether they are further aware that there is very little difference between decibels of sound of engines at full power and those at reduced power; and whether they will state the present position and provide details of any discussions at an official level which are taking place on this subject at the present time.]
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, compliance with jet take-off noise limits such as those imposed at Heathrow usually involves a reduction in power after the initial climb, but the manner in which the aircraft is operated to meet the limits is a matter for the operator to determine, taking account of the legal requirements relating to safety, including the techniques contained in the safety manual. The noise limits may at any time be departed from to the extent necessary for avoiding immediate danger. The procedures adopted by British operators for this purpose have been the subject of exhaustive study by officers of the Board of Trade and the Air Registration Board, who are satisfied that the procedures are safe.
§ LORD FOLEYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, I should like to ask him whether he is aware that 778 because of the noise restriction pilots are forced to take off very steeply at what is known technically as a more acute angle of attack than is normal; and when they reach a certain height, as the noble Lord has said, they reduce power. Is the noble Lord aware that pilots hate this procedure and very often cheat? It seems to me absolutely reprehensible that pilots should be placed in—
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Foley, will forgive me for interrupting, perhaps he would allow me to suggest that he should make his point a s a question.
§ LORD FOLEYMy Lords, I am trying to do just that. Does not the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, think it is very bad that pilots should be placed in a position of having to choose between safety and being hauled over the coals for a small technical offence?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I happen to be a member of the Association of British Airline Pilots who have been consulted on this procedure and who have co-operated with the implementation of it. While I agree that it would be much better if one could keep on maximum power for as long as possible, procedures laid down endeavour to get the best of both worlds; namely, to ensure safety, and at the same time cut down the noise nuisance to people underneath.
§ LORD FOLEYMy Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, trying to say that he considers a slight noise decrease is more important than the safety of perhaps hundreds of lives? That seems to me extraordinary.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am sure the noble Lord is not saying that the regulations now in force are jeopardising the safety of hundreds of lives. If he is saying that, I would suggest to him that it is very wrong to create that kind of apprehension.
§ LORD FOLEYMy Lords, may I say that if this is the case, why do pilots have to cheat? Three very senior B.O.A.C. pilots have assured me that in fact they jeopardise their careers by cheating on this and adopting full power at a shallower angle of attack.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the position is as I have stated. Although the limits are laid down, if there is any question of ensuring safety or avoiding immediate danger, the noise limits can be departed from without in any sense cheating.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, if I heard him aright the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, said that he was a member of the British Airline Pilots' Association. Does that mean that the very limited answers I got to my supplementary questions mean that he is "working to rule"?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, probably it means that I am careful in what I say.
THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether there is any restriction at Heathrow on the use of full power on any type of aircraft?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am not certain that I understand the noble Earl. What I said was that after the initial climb full power is restricted.
§ LORD ALLERTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord at what height it becomes necessary to reduce power?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, it depends entirely on the size of the aircraft, the type of engine and the limits laid down for that particular flight.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, is it not a fact that any limit on a pilot's discretion, as this is, is a danger? And what is the point of restricting the pilot from keeping on full power when he has got up to a certain height? Surely at that height there is much less interference with the amenities of dwellers of houses down below.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am told that the difference between full power and the restricted power is one of ten decibels, which means a lessening of noise and nuisance to persons on the ground by a factor of 50 per cent.
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, can my noble friend confirm that the safety of an aircraft is entirely in the hands of the pilot and the decision is his.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, my noble friend has put it very shortly and very well.