§ 2.38 p.m.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government why money which has been paid into the West London Magistrates' Court under a matrimonial order—part of which was for the maintenance of a child of the marriage—and has accrued owing to the death of the mother—cannot be paid to the East Suffolk County Council, as the child is in their care.]
§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM)My Lords, the death of the person to whom payments must be made under a matrimonial order brings to an end any further liability under that order. The disposal of payments made to the clerk of the court after such a contingency is the responsibility of the clerk. It is not for me to determine a legal issue, but I am advised that, under the existing law, the County Council has no title to this money.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his reply, may I ask him, first, whether his Department would assist the County Council in trying to trace the father, as they have the child in care, at considerable cost to the ratepayers; and, secondly, whether the Department would consider legislation to make possible the payment from the court to a local authority where the child is in care?
§ LORD STONHAMWith regard to my noble friend's first supplementary question, steps have been taken which will make it possible in the future to get in touch with the father. Extensive inquiries have already been made, and are continuing. The position of the existing law relating to the disposal of money in the hands of the clerk has been noted for review, but it is not possible for me to hold out any prospect of early legislation.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, was not this question brought up in the debate the 4 other day? The child has no right in the money; the right is the mother's. Was it not brought out in the debate that we should get nearer to the Continental system, where the child has the right? Are the Government starting to consider this question?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. In this case the order has been discharged because of the death of the mother. As I indicated in my reply to my noble friend, this loophole, as it were, has been noted and is being considered for future legislation.
§ LORD ROYLEMy Lords, could my noble friend say what the situation is if it is not a question of a child in the care of the local authority, but of a an aunt or grandparent? Who maintains the child in those circumstances?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, so far as actual money paid in is concerned—in this case an accumulation of money which was paid out after the death of the mother—the position would be exactly the same for a relative as it is for a local authority. The remedy under present law would be exactly the same; in other words, to seek in court a maintenance order for the child against the father.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, could the noble Lord explain what happens to the money? Where does it go?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, the disposal of the money rests entirely with the clerk of the court. The rules which he has to follow are that the first title to the money is to the beneficiary under the order, so long as that person is still alive. But in a case like this, where the order has been discharged, disposal depends on the circumstances. If any of the money relates to obligations which arose before the discharge of the order, the estate of the beneficiary may be able to lay some claim to it; but where the money related to the period after the discharge of the order, the only person with title is the payer himself.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, bearing in mind that this child went into care within a matter of five weeks of his mother's death, if the father is not found within a reasonable time, could something 5 be done to see that instruction is given to the Senior Chief Clerk of the West London Magistrates' Court to pay the money over to the East Suffolk County Council? Otherwise, if the father is not found, the County Council cannot take action against him, and this money so far as one can see, will remain indefinitely with the West London Court.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has no power under existing law to instruct the Clerk of the Court to pay this money over to the County Council, and, as I said in my first reply, the County Council have no title to it. Therefore, in a case of this kind it is a matter for the Clerk to dispose of the accumulated monies in the way that I mentioned in my reply to a supplementary from the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore. The only way of dealing satisfactorily with a case of this kind is further legislation.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, am I not right in saying that if money accrues in a magistrates' court for a period of six months or more the clerk of the court is bound to return that money to the Home Office?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, certainly not in all cases; because this is a case where he is not bound to return the money to the Home Office. In fact, he can dispose of it only in exactly one of the ways I mentioned in my reply to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore.