§ 2.36 p.m.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, and if so under what conditions, a sailor, soldier or airman can buy himself, or be bought, out of Her Majesty's service.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS (LORD WINTERBOTTOM)My Lords, the answer to the first part of the Question is that Servicemen can purchase their discharge under certain conditions. Recruits to the Army and R.A.F. can do so as a right under the Army Act 1955 and the Air Force Act 1955 on payment of a sum of £20 during the first three months of their initial engagement. This right has just been introduced into the Royal Navy and Royal Marines by a regulation under Section 2 of the Armed Forces Act 1966 which came into force on February 8 this year. After this period, discharge by purchase may be permitted under the conditions laid down in Queen's Regulations and Defence Council Instructions. Broadly, it is necessary for the applicant to have completed a specified term of service (this is in order that the Services can get a fair return for the money invested in training him) before an application can be considered, and then approval depends on whether or not he could be allowed to go without detriment to the manning position in his trade. In the Army and Royal Air Force the period of productive service required is three years, but in undermanned trades a further period would have to be served. 1280 Because of the present manning situation, the Royal Navy is currently unable to consider applications until a man has completed two-thirds of his first engagement.
All the above considerations may be waived in compassionate cases if it is established that the man's presence is essential to relieve hardship or to provide extra assistance in looking after, say, a wife or parent. In these cases, too, the purchase price may be reduced, or waived altogether, if it is more than the man can reasonably be expected to pay.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask whether the Government will reconsider these conditions, which are often very harsh, particularly in the case of young boys who at 15 years of age sign on until 30 years of age? The three months which they are allowed affords no real opportunity for them to judge the conditions of their Service, and very often discharge by purchase is delayed for a long period.
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, there are two points to make on my noble friend's question. The first is that I do not think one can compare service in the Armed Forces with civilian life. There must be these special regulations so that the Armed Forces may be manned to carry out their responsibilities. As regards boy service, my noble friend raised this matter in a debate in this House on March 16, and on that occasion my noble friend Lord Shackleton informed him that all relevant points relating to boy service will be taken into account in the investigation which my right honourable friend the Minister of Defence for Administration is at this moment undertaking.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, could my noble friend explain how he reconciles the fact that a boy of 15 is allowed to contract into the Services for a number of years with the fact that in civil life no individual is allowed to sign a contract under the age of 21?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the boy does not, in fact, contract in himself. He is contracted in with his parents' agreement.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that often this engagement is made not by his parents but by the head of an orphanage from which the boy is very ready to get away as soon as possible, without beginning to understand the commitment which has been entered into in his name?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, there is another aspect which I did not mention in my original Answer. The Royal Navy is not an inhuman organisation, not a latter-day press gang. In fact, if a youngster in these circumstances finds himself unhappy in his new position in life, just starting his working life in the Navy, as in the case mentioned by my noble friend, he is allowed out if it is proved that the life is not congenial to him.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, just to keep the records straight, may I ask the Government whether it is not the case—it used to be—that a boy can enter into a contract in Scotland at the age of 14? I think he can do so under Scottish Common Law.
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I am afraid I am not an expert in Scottish law and I hope the noble Lord will forgive me if I do not answer.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend another question? Take the case of an adolescent boy of 15 who is going through a restless stage which might pass at 16 or 17. Does he consider that that kind of boy would be obstructed by his parents from signing anything?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is a factor that will be considered by my right honourable friend the Minister of Defence for Administration in the study which he is now undertaking.