§ 2.58 p.m.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what immediate steps are being taken to assist the inhabitants of Gibraltar to meet the effects on essential supplies caused by the closing of the frontier by the Spanish Government; and in particular what steps are being taken to ensure adequate supplies of fresh fruits and vegetables.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD BESWICK)My Lords, arrangements have been made for the supply of fresh fruit and vegetables from sources other than Spain, and these are now arriving. Other essential supplies continue to arrive normally by sea.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, arising out of the Minister's reply, may I ask him very briefly for information on three points? Would it not help the people of Gibraltar to face what the Governor has described as "the savage blockade of indefinite duration" if Her Majesty's Government here and now made an unequivocal declaration that the sovereignty of Gibraltar is not for bargaining, and that, so long as the people of Gibraltar wish that they and their territory should so remain, they should remain under the British Crown? That is the first point. The second point is 291 that, while this siege lasts, will the Government call a halt to this farce of Anglo-Spanish talks, which can only have the result of casting doubts upon the determination of Her Majesty's Government to stand entirely by the people of Gibraltar? My third point is this: Would the Government, if necessary, consider organising an air-lift for fruit, vegetables and other perishable goods to Gibraltar, using either civil or military transports, and making very clear to General Franco that we will not tolerate any interference with the use of Gibraltar airstrip, for either civil or military use?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, first as to the reference to a "savage blockage", I am afraid that the noble Lord has either misread or misunderstood what the Governor actually said. He did not refer to "a blockade". So far as the talks are concerned, the fact is that we are trying to stop this dispute in a sensible and civilised fashion.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEWithout an assurance to Gibraltar?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, as to the assurance about taking fruit and vegetables by air, with all due respect to the noble Lord, although I have a preference myself for using aircraft if at all possible, I do not believe it is necessary in these circumstances to do anything so dramatic. The supplies of fruit and vegetables are coming in quite readily by less expensive means.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, does the answer that the Minister has given mean that Her Majesty's Government have in fact made up their minds to support and sustain by every means in their power the loyal subjects of the Crown in Gibraltar?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, what Her Majesty's Government will do is to stand by the people of Gibraltar. The solution that we seek will be in the best interests of the people of Gibraltar, no less than our own.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, arising out of that reply—the Minister says, "The best interests of the people of Gibraltar"—if the people of Gibraltar wish to remain under the British Crown, cannot the Government now say that they shall do so?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I really do not see why the noble Lord should try to start trouble unnecessarily. As I have said previously in this House, we recognise that the people of Gibraltar wish to maintain their British connection and we shall certainly have regard to their wishes.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, why should I be accused of stirring up trouble unnecessarily in exercising my right to put a proper Parliamentary question?
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)My Lords, I am bound to say that the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, is a very old and experienced Parliamentarian and I am surprised that he cannot take even that amount of criticism.
§ LORD HARLECHMy Lords, surely we could get a rather clearer answer from Her Majesty's Government than we have had this afternoon. They have been continually pressed to say whether they are prepared to stand by the people of Gibraltar. Do they not realise that to continue with talks after such provocation as we have seen this week might well persuade the Spanish Government that the British Government are going to give way? That is the impression that was given this summer and that is the impression Her Majesty's Government are still giving.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, looking at it from this side of the House, the impression that we might give way seems to be created by what is said on the other side of the House and not by what is said on this side. As for continuing the talks, as I have said earlier, we are prepared to submit this to the proper international courts, and I should have thought that this was much the more sensible way of going about this business.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, if fish, fresh vegetables and fruit are no longer coming from Spain, can the noble Lord say where they are coming from? Are they coming from Tangiers? Otherwise, could Her Majesty's Government have discussions with the Portuguese Government with a view to seeing whether they could be obtained from Southern Portugal? In view of the fact that there have been increasing restrictions recently in regard to British people 293 living in the La Linea area, whose children go to school in Gibraltar, and also this quasi-blockade imposed as from yesterday, is it not time that Her Majesty's Government took a firmer attitude towards Spain, and that retaliatory measures might be considered towards Spain?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I do not think any useful purpose can be served in following up this line of questioning. So far as naming the particular fishmongers or fruiterers from which these supplies are obtained, I do not think it is in the best interests of the people of Gibraltar to say anything about them.
§ LORD MERRIVALEWhy? They must come from somewhere.
§ LORD BESWICKYes, of course.
§ LORD MERRIVALEThen, where will they come from?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, all I am saying is that it is not in the best interests of the people of Gibraltar that I should inform the noble Lord, at this time, of the particular sources of supply. I should have thought that was sensible enough.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, arising out of that reply, may I ask the Government this? Is not the best title of possession of anything that you retain possession, and if you offer to go to law about it is that not a sign that our title is weak? It is for the person who does not possess a thing to offer to go to law and not for the person who holds that thing. I should like the Government to explain how they think they have not weakened their position by that offer.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, in my experience usually the party which is the more ready to go to court is the party with the better case. May I just add this: since the noble Lord spoke about my accusing him of raising the temperature or disturbing the situation, I feel we should get this in perspective. I would invite noble Lords to read what the Governor actually said the other day in his broadcast. During the course of that broadcast he expressed words of admiration about the behaviour of the people of Gibraltar and called attention to their tolerance, good sense and determination. I should have thought it was 294 possible to show tolerance and good sense without getting quite so excited as certain organs of the Press have done over the last day or so.
§ LORD WADEMy Lords, is it not essential that the British Government should make it quite clear that in their view the principle of self-determination applies to the inhabitants of Gibraltar, and would it not relieve this anxiety if the Government would take the opportunity of stating that they will take whatever steps are necessary to maintain that principle so far as the people of Gibraltar are concerned?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I should have thought that was a very reasonable request to make. I should also have thought that if noble Lords wished to consider a statement on that point it would be better to put down a Question on it rather than one about fruit and vegetables.
§ VISCOUNT MONSELLMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether ferries are still running from Gibraltar to Algeciras?
§ LORD BESWICKI understand the answer is, No.