§ 2.48 p.m.
§ LORD MITCHISONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty' s Government how the rate of house-building in this country compares at the moment with that in other industrialised countries for which figures are readily obtainable.]
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, since the Answer contains a number of figures, these will, with permission, be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The figures indicate that for 1965 our rate of house-building per 1,000 population was still below that for most industrialised Western countries. On the other hand, while in most of these countries the rate has been declining, ours has been rising. In any case, I am sure that the noble Lord appreciates the difficulty of making comparisons. For one thing, our standards, generally speaking, are much higher than those in any part of the Continent. The rooms are more spacious. Again, there is a much larger proporton of flats being built on the Continent than here, although we in this country are also increasing the number of flats built.
Further, I am sure that the whole House, as well as the noble Lord, will be glad to know that there has been a steady increase in our house-building rates in the last few years. Whereas in 1963 in this country 315.4 thousand houses were built—or 5.9 per thousand of the population—the number has now become 398.5 thousand, or 7.3 per thousand of the population. We are not complacent about this, but I hope that the noble Lord appreciates the difficulty of comparing our prouductivity with that of the Continent. Although we are well down the list, we are steadily improving, and at the same time are preserving our standards.
§ [The figures referred to were as follows]:
| Rates of house construction per 1,000 population* | ||
| 1964 | 1965 | |
| Belgium | 4.7† | 4.2† |
| France | 7.6 | 8.4 |
| German Federal Republic | 10.7 | 10.0 |
| German Democratic Republic | 4.5 | 4.0 |
| Italy | 8.8 | 7.5 |
| Netherlands | 8.4 | 9.4 |
| Sweden | 11.4 | 12.5 |
| U.S.A | 8.3‡ | 7.9‡ |
| U.S.S.R. | 9.6 | 9.5 |
| United Kingdom | 7.2 | 7.3 |
| * Including conversions by which additional dwellings were provided. | ||
| † E.C.E. estimate. | ||
| ‡ U.S.A. only publishes dwellings started. |
§ LORD MITCHISONMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his Answer, and hoping for the figures he is going to produce, and while agreeing entirely with him that housing statistics, especially international ones, have to be used with great caution, may I ask whether he has given us the back figures, too? Is he aware that, by comparison with Western Germany, for instance, when the Tories were in power the Germans were building about twice as many houses as we were? We have reached the stage now where they are building only half as many again: that is, 1½ times as many as we are building.
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, I am aware of much of what the noble Lord has said, although I would, with deference, correct him. It was not exactly twice as many. In 1964, in the United Kingdom, the rate of house construction was 7.2per thousand of the population, compared with the German Federal Republic figure of 10.7 per thousand. The German Federal Republic dropped in 1965 to 10.0 per thousand and we increased our rate to 7.3 per thousand, so those figures are not quite so accurate as those we usually give. Nevertheless, there is a striking difference.
§ LORD MITCHISONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that in 1961, when I believe that the noble Lord. Lord Brooke of Cumnor, was Minister of Housing and Local Government, West German construction of houses—
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, may I ask, on a point of Order, whether the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, is asking for information or giving it?
§ LORD MITCHISONMy Lords, he is trying to get it checked—was almost exactly twice ours, and now it is almost exactly half as much again: one-and-a-half times?
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, may I ask whether the Government are aware that we on this side of the House are just as disappointed by the answers by the noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, as was (it was quite apparent from his face) the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison? May I also ask, first, whether the Government can say when they now expect that 400,000 houses a year will be built in this country, and, secondly, in what year they now expect that 500,000 houses a year will be built in this country?
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, my first reply is to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison. I will see that his figures are checked, and I am very grateful that he has checked mine this afternoon. Regarding the question of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, yes, of course we are all disappointed that there are still large numbers of people not as well housed as they should be. Everyone agrees with that. But equally I am sure that the noble Lord rejoices in the fact that we are building far more houses now than in 1993, or when his Party was in office—
§ LORD SORENSENI beg your Lordships' pardon. We are certainly in need of a lot of checking and counter-checking this afternoon. I meant, of course, 1963. I repeat that I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Newton, agrees that progress is being made. When we shall reach the target I cannot say. It depends on a number of factors both Divine and secular.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, I must ask the noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, to be good enough to answer my last two questions. In what year do the Government now expect that 400,000 houses will be built and in what year do they expect that 500,000 houses will be built?
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, I quite appreciate the aspiration of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, and his desire for 723 information. If the noble Lord will put down a Question I will do my best to satisfy him. I cannot guarantee to do so, but I will do my best.
§ LORD HASTINGSMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that fewer houses are being built now than were being built at the end of the period of Tory Administration?
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, I think that those figures need checking.
§ LORD ST. HELENSMy Lords, may I ask whether the accumulation of unused bricks on the Continent is as great as ours or whether we are "top of the league".
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, I believe that that is an entirely different question and might as well be directed to Continental Governments as to ours.
§ LORD SOMERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, whether he would not agree that statistics regarding building in this country in comparison with other countries are, like most statistics, rather misleading, since, for instance, West Germany does not suffer from an inflow of immigrants increasing her population year by year in the same way as we do?
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, may I say to the noble Lord that if I were to go into that question at any length I should be corrected for engaging the House in a debate, but I will say again that I thank him for confirming what I myself said, that in this respect it is very difficult to compare one country with another.