GIBRALTAR (Hansard, 2 November 1966)

§ LORD WADE
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD BESWICK)
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary made it clear in his statement of 31 October that we have proposed to the Spanish Government that the legal issues, of which there are several, in dispute between us over Gibraltar should be referred to the International Court of Justice. This proposal is entirely consistent with our determination to safeguard the interests of the people of Gibraltar.

§ LORD WADE
My Lords, I welcome the statement of the Foreign Secretary which was made on Monday. May I ask the noble Lord what exactly are the legal difficulties to which he referred? 571 At the same time, does he agree that the wish of the people of Gibraltar to determine their own future must be paramount, that British policy should be based on loyalty to the people of Gibraltar, and that the suggestion in certain quarters that this is some kind of outdated colonialism is sheer nonsense? If they wish to remain British they should be allowed to do so. But in the light of this, and in the light of the latest action of the Spanish authorities in regard to passports, would it not be practicable to grant British passports to the Gibraltarians?

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, the point which the noble Lord makes about self-determination is one with which instinctively we should all wish to agree, but there are a lot of legal complexities about this matter. If I may give just one example to illustrate the difficulty of dogmatising or of drum-beating in this aspect of the matter, may I remind noble Lords about the provisions of Article 10 of the Treaty of Utrecht? As they will know, Article 10 provides that if Britain should ever wish to "alienate the propriety"—those are the words used—of Gibraltar, Spain shall have preference. This is the Treaty which the noble Baroness opposite, may I remind the House, was yesterday stating so categorically we should stand by; but that is what this Treaty provides. On the other hand, Article 73 of the United Nations Charter, which certain noble Lords and the noble Baroness also went out of their way to decry yesterday, states: The interests of the inhabitants of non-self-governing territories are paramount". That is a very relevant matter, I quite agree with the noble Lord, and it is because of that, and because of all the other complexities of the matter, that we are prepared to invite the International Court to decide the result and legal position.

§ LORD WADE
My Lords, could the noble Lord answer my question about passports? I understand that a new difficulty has arisen, reported in The Times this morning, owing to the fact that Gibraltarians have not British passports.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, there was a report in the Press, and immediately on seeing this report we made in- 572 quiries through His Excellency the Spanish Ambassador. I have just been informed that the Spanish Ambassador has spoken to Madrid, but there is no change in the situation in Gibraltar in regard to passports; in other words the report was not true.

§ LORD MOLSON
My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lady Horsbrugh, I should like to ask the Minister whether he is aware that, in saying she decried the Charter of the United Nations, he is really putting something into her mouth she never said. What in fact she said was that the Charter of the United Nations could not affect legal rights which dated back before that Charter came into operation.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, if I misinterpreted what the noble Baroness said I apologise; but she was, as the noble Lord will recall, inviting us to rest our case upon the Treaty and not upon the Charter of the United Nations.

§ LORD ROWLEY
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the proposed White Paper will specify and clarify the various legal issues to which he has referred, because they are most puzzling to many of us?

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, the White Paper, which will be lengthy, will set out many matters, but the specific points which it is suggested should go before the International Court for examination are points with which we should seek to reach agreement with the Spanish Government. They therefore do not appear in the White Paper.

§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE
My Lords, I hope that the Minister will not consider it drum-beating if I ask him how long the uncertainty is likely to continue that is to say, how long it will be before the International Court is likely to consider and give a verdict, and so relieve the uncertainty.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, as to that, of course, I cannot say. It will depend, in part, upon whether the Government of Spain in the first place agrees that the matter should be referred to the International Court. But may I make just one point here, in all sincerity? When the noble Lord talks about uncertainty, let him remember that if we were to break off talks, as some people suggest, 573 if we were to sit tight, if we were to sustain the people in Gibraltar by means of an airlift, and so on, as the noble Lord himself suggested, there would still remain for the people of Gibraltar a high degree of uncertainty, would there not? So that the best method of clearing the uncertainty in their interests seems to be by referring this issue to the International Court.

§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE
My Lords, is not the uncertainty caused by the Government's reluctance to give that positive assurance for which so many noble Lords have asked?

§ LORD BESWICK
No, my Lords, I venture to say it is not. We could lay down the law dogmatically from our point of view, but it does not alter the geographical facts of the situation. I do not want to argue the Spanish Government case. Like the noble Lord, I have been to Gibraltar, my sentimental attachment for Gibraltar is as great as his, and I know what it is to be on that Rock without the opportunity of crossing over on the frontier. This present state is not of our willing, and if it were continued indefinitely irrespective of a declaration made here, it would inevitably leave an unsatisfactory, uncertain position for people endeavouring to earn a living in Gibraltar.

§ LORD OAKSHOTT
My Lords, the noble Lord was good enough to quote Article 10 of the Treaty of Utrecht. Can he say whether in fact Great Britain has any intention whatever of alienating the propriety of Gibraltar? If she has not does any legal point at all arise over its sovereignty?

§ LORD BESWICK
Yes, my Lords, the legal point could arise. The noble Lord apparently misunderstands the position, if I may say so. If we were to accept the principle of self-determination for the people of Gibraltar, the Spanish argument is that it would be alienating the propriety according to the Treaty.

§ LORD HARLECH
My Lords, could the noble Lord clear up one point? Is it necessary to get the Spanish Government's agreement before the matter is sent to the International Court? Can we do it on our own volition without their consent?

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, I should like notice of that question. The noble Lord will, however, remember that we were asked by the United Nations first to discuss with the Spanish Government with a view to getting agreement. It is in accordance with the request of the United Nations that we have attempted to get agreement with the Spanish Government.

§ LORD HENDERSON
My Lords, would it not be—

§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)
My Lords, I was going to say before the noble Lord began to raise his point that after perhaps one more question from the noble Lord this might be a matter that the House would wish to pursue in another way, as we had a long Question Time on it yesterday. But I would never stand in this House between the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, and any matter of foreign affairs. I feel certain he will be quite helpful.

§ LORD HENDERSON
My Lords, I apologise for extending the discussion, but I should like to ask this question. Does it not require both parties to agree to the reference to the World Court?

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, I am sure that if the noble Lord says that is the case, it is the case. I was not certain about it.