§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD OAKSHOTTMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government upon whom the responsibility lies for the payment of the pensions of civil servants employed by the former Central African Federation; and whether there is at present any interruption of, or difficulty over, payment.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (LORD BESWICK)My Lords, the responsibility for the payment of the pensions of civil servants employed by the former Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland rests, under the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland (Dissolution) Order in Council 1963, with the Pension Agency established by that Order. Until other provision is made the Pension Agent is the Pensions Officer of the Southern Rhodesian Government, but in carrying out the duties of Pension Agent he acts in an independent capacity. The moneys out of which he makes payments come from the Central African Pension Fund, which is also established by that Order and which is vested in and managed by Trustees appointed by the Governments concerned. The Crown Agents have been appointed as the Trustees. I am glad to say that payments are continuing to be made. However, the fund has for some time now been faced with a serious shortage of liquidity problem, since the assets are mostly tied up in Government stock of Rhodesia, Zambia and Malawi. Her Majesty's 682 Government hope that this problem can be resolved without delay.
§ LORD OAKSHOTTMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that rather involved Answer. May I take it, from what he says, that there is no interruption in the payment of these pensions in Rhodesia at the present time? May I further ask him this, a point which came to my notice since I put down the Question: is he aware that not only residents of Rhodesia suffer if there is an interruption but also former servants of the Federation, ex-Servicemen living in this country, who have been notified that their pensions arc not going to be paid any longer? Surely Her Majesty's Government must have some responsibility after the break-up of the Federation, separately with each of the territories, to see that these pensions are properly paid?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, if the noble Lord has any details of any pensioner who is not receiving his pension, and if he will let me have them, I will certainly have inquiries made. But my information is that there is no interruption. So far as responsibility is concerned, that rests, as I have said, with the Pension Agency which, in turn, is responsible to the three Governments, Malawi, Zambia and Rhodesia.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would be good enough to look at this matter again, because I have here some cuttings from the Salisbury Sunday Mail which imply that these pensions are not being paid owing to action which is taken by Her Majesty's Government. That may be nonsense, but I think it is most important, if that be so, that this is made clear; and there is a distinction drawn between what was done as a result of representations made in this House and the pensioners of the Federation Civil Service.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I think we are dealing with two quite different problems here. No action has been taken by Her Majesty's Government that has resulted in the withholding of any payment of a pension. Indeed, Her Majesty's Government have no power to withhold the payment of pensions. The difficulty arises from the liquidity problem. To enable the Pension Agent to solve this an appeal has been made to the three Governments for further funds. Both 683 Malawi and Zambia have made offers, in the case of Malawi to make a loan to the Trustees, and in the case of Zambia to purchase £1 million worth of Zambian stock. But the Rhodesian authorities have not been so co-operative. There is no action in this matter that has been taken by the British authorities.
§ LORD OAKSHOTTMy Lords, again I thank the noble Lord for that further answer. But have not Her Majesty's Government some responsibility in regard to people resident in this country? At the time of the break-up of the Federation, surely, with each of the three territories separately Her Majesty's Government took on some responsibility—so to speak, a fourfold bargain conducted with each of the three territories plus Her Majesty's Government. And when we have people in this country whose pensions are not being paid, surely there is some responsibility on Her Majesty's Government to see that they are paid.
§ LORD BESWICKNo, my Lords. The responsibility which Her Majesty's Government accepted was to make good 25 per cent. of any deficit revealed when the present actuarial investigation is completed, and Her Majesty's Government stand by that undertaking.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this further question? As I understand it, under Clause 7 of the Agreement which set up this trust, the United Kingdom Government undertook that they would not place any hindrance upon the transmission of any assets of the Fund, and, as I understand it—perhaps the noble Lord will be good enough to deny this if it is wrong—Her Majesty's Government have recently repudiated that, on the grounds of the emergency which exists in Rhodesia, and therefore no funds are being transferred.
§ LORD BESWICKNo, my Lords. I see where the noble Lord gets his information, but I think there is a misunderstanding here, whether genuine or otherwise. Her Majesty's Government are not withholding any income which is due to the Fund. There are in this country, however, some assets resulting from the sale of stock. We have no obligation to transfer those assets at all unless requested by the Trustees, and the Trustees have not asked us to do this.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, could the noble Lord explain a little further? He referred to a liquidity problem being the trouble here. How does that liquidity problem arise? Does it not arise in some form from the sanctions that have been introduced by Her Majesty's Government?
§ LORD BESWICKNo, my Lords. This difficulty arose before I.D.I. I have been asked the difference between liquidity and assets. I should have thought that it was fairly clear. Certain assets were placed at the disposal of the Pension Fund and they are inadequate. Appeals have been made to the various Governments for further contributions. Two Governments have responded, the third has not.
LORD REAMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that though perhaps their legal commitment may be limited, there is a moral responsibility to these people who may not be getting their pensions?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, there is an actuarial problem here which we shall do all in our power to help solve.